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For what it’s worth, I don’t like Bitch Lab, I don’t read her, I don’t think she’s very bright, and I think the main thing she piggybacked on recently was a comment thread to a post she didn’t author. Nice appropriation, that.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
12-15-2007
Just go ahead and bitch
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I used to subscribe to Alef (Hebrew for A and sort of an acronym for Academic Left) mailing list. If you read a book on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict after 1995 written by an Israeli there was probably a 75% chance they were a subscriber.
When I started reading it had a web archive, and it was a fairly open system. They had trolls, an unacomplished Israeli wanna be Milton Friedman from the economics department of Haifa Univerity took it upon himself to yell at everyone but that didn’t seem to be a problem.
When the system closed up it was over infighting. Someone on the self-defined left would draw a line. This might be at the division of Jerusalem, this might be at dismantling major Jewish cities in the West Bank, the median would be considering anything outside the green line to be part of the conflict. It really didn’t matter though, the piss fights about who was a leftist and who was a crypto (Jewish?!) anti-semite marked the times where the thing went more private.
The web archives were removed from public view about the time one prominent author accused another one of anti-semitism via their position on a one state solution.
Rolls were purged after another pissing match over a piece of scripture and it’s rabinical exegesis (among a group of people who were 100% athiest).
I never contribitued once to this mailing list and I got cut off after the victim of the accusations from the penultimate paragraph, accused the original accuser of anti-semitism for not condemning Walt and Mearsheimer’s work on the Israeli lobby.
My guess is it’s the exact same dynamic. A screwed up circular firing squad full of bitter personal disputes.
Hey there, B|L! Long time no read. Hope you are doing well and you and your loved ones are healthy.
As for your question, I’ve been a member of private lists on and off for years. There are all kinds of reasons for wanting a private space for discussions that are not appropriate for public consumption. Sometimes it’s been to let off steam about mutual frustrations. Sometimes it’s been to discuss a passion that isn’t accepted by the broader community. Sometimes it’s been because I’ve wanted to go deeper into a subject when everyone else was too tired, or too bored or too uninterested to keep the discussion going.
I’ve never initiated one of these groups, but I have respected the wishes of those who initiated the groups I’ve belonged to. It takes effort, commitment and skills to create a community and to keep it alive, active and productive. I’ve never made the effort myself, and I respect the skills of those who can and do create these communities.
You write: “My ire then was piqued by the fact that the members of this particular list were often bloggers who are often the target of critique by WOC and SexPoxers. ”
I’m not particuarly pissed by this. I would be surprised if these people weren’t talking to each other off the net. If I were attacked for something online in ways I didn’t expect or didn’t agree with, I’m sure I would seek out other people who had the same experience. I suspect I would bitch and whine about how horrible it felt to be the object of disapproval.
At that point, It’s not about who is right or wrong or who’s argument makes the most sense. It’s about how crappy I would feel to have a lot of people calling me out when I’ve fucked up. It’s about how I would wish it had happened differently and how I don’t believe I’m clueless and disgusting. Even if I am clueless and disgusting. It still stucks to be called on it. Taking time out with other people who also don’t understand what it’s all about is, I’m guessing, a good thing.
Seriously, I don’t think you or I want to listen in while sexist, racist, transphobic, classist assholes whine about how misunderstood they are. Isn’t it better when they take it some place private rather than when they spew it out into the world?
You’ll find my new e-mail in this post. If you’re willing, I’d like to keep in touch.
Ravenmn
Thank you for your response Ravenmn. Muchly appreciated.
Just to clarify. The list run by prominent bloggers was something I learned about through BA who was a member. She told me about it because she was referencing those discussions in one of her posts about JV. I thought she was saying *I* was someone who used class to deny my racism. Apparently, she meant members of that list. She had to go on vacation after that so I never heard more.
I would appreciate it if, in the future, people simply post my entire post and comments right on that list. I really don’t want the trafficfrom a private list from which I was banned. From what Belledame said, my presence would have been triggering and I am troubled by what is being said that isn’t being said to me. I think it’s fair to say: please just repost the things you need to bitch about right there.
deal?
Thanks and I’ll be in touch. I have to go rescue rolls from the oven for tomorrow’s pah-tay!
Join the club.
And I am getting really sick of everything being conveniently “triggering.”
/snark, whine, and passive-aggression
Amber –
The forward slash was meant to indicate that you’re ending what you considered a snarking, whining and passive aggressive comment from you?
I wasn’t sure what you meant.
As for the triggering business, that was my word. What was actually said was this, which I should have posted to begin with. Ijust dn’t use that email list for anything but reading at work. So I forget about it.
I’d asked to join. Then, when I was told no, I asked to be able to join and read only. Belledame replied;
from Belledame
to berber carpet bomb ,
date Dec 10, 2007 11:19 PM
subject Re: subscribing
mailed-by earthlink.net
hide details Dec 10 (8 days ago)
Reply
yeah, I wish there were read-only/individual moderation (among other features), but I don’t think google lets you. and I mean, not like I don’t trust you not to post, just…well, it’d be hard not to -want- to, I think, and it doesn’t seem fair, you know, I wouldn’t feel great about that even if it were technically possible. Also there’s like, I mean we have some conversations you’d probably be keen on, but there’s also intermixed a lot of venting of the kind I knew you weren’t too jazzed about in the summer list, you know, Heart-bashing, gossip and so forth. trying to find a balance there but. Anyway, just to keep things simple, I’ve decided I’m just putting a general freeze on for now while I/we get our bearings. Sorry, I know it sucks.
I’d been thinking of starting another group at some point, a more strictly themed group, like a book club, I think, and if/when I do I’ll let you know. There’s also a potential group project some of us were talking about which, well if it ever gets off the ground, again–for sure I’ll let you know, cause I think it’s something you’d def. be a great part of. I’m kind of in a “one day at a time” mode at the moment, though.
Repay me? Um–oh yeah. Let’s see. I could set up a Paypal account of my own I suppose, I’d been thinking about doing it anyway soonish, a tip jar on the blog, you know. Lemme look into that and get back to you. It’s not urgent, but thank you for remembering.
Cool on the artsy fartsy & activism, and glad the job seems to be working out so well!
Say hi to R, and enjoy your quiche.
x
- Hide quoted text -
At 10:19 PM -0500 12/10/07, berber carpet bomb wrote:
> sorry about the blow out. i don’t want to post to the list. leanred my lesson this summer about getting involved in blog discussions for which I ultimately don’t have time to participate at the level that is required. if you have read only access, that would be great. or, just keep my posts moderated in case you’re worried.
>
> work’s great. i’m pretty happy. have found some artsy fartsy stuff and activism stuff to sink myself into.
>
> oh. i want to repay you. can i send the money to you somehow. po box or anything?
>
> laterlater. i’ve got a quiche in the over.
>
>
> x0
>
>
>
> On 12/10/07, Belledame wrote:
>
> Hey, BL. Good to hear from you. You know, weird and unfortunate
> timing–we just had a rather nasty large blowout, with two people I
> know you care about leaving in the process no less, and we’re still
> processing the fallout, which seems to keep on rippling. So, at this
> point I think it’d be best if I at least not let anyone new in for a
> while, especially someone who’s already got an emotional relationship
> with some of the players at hand, familiarity/history with the
> particular ongoing thrash of which this is a chapter, and so on.
> Thanks for understanding.
>
> How’s R? How’s the gig? Hope things are going well for you. Happy
> generalized holiday season, with a minimum of annoying Christmas
> Carols.
>
> –B
>
Amber –
At the risk of pissing you off, I was thinking about the use of psychotherapeutic language when I’ve been catching up on these various discussions. One thing that occurred to me is that while the word “triggering” is obviously part of psychotherapy, the language of talking about your feelings, as you often do, is as well.
They are not bad words or concepts in their own right.
But I noticed how, when you or others talk about feelings in the way therapists want us to do — they often try to get us just to recognize and embrace what we’re feeling. Put our finger on it. And they try not to judge it. In that sense, and maybe I’m wrong, feelings point to a condition that is like the weather. These are my feelings and I can’t really help it — that’s what it sounds like.
I remember have a blow out with both R and a workmate this summer — over different things, natch, but they happened around the same time.
In both cases, the response from co-worker and R was something like, “well, you’re responsible for your own feelings, so this isn’t helping.” (R) and “Those feelings are your problem.” (co-worker).
That’s a bad paraphrase of how they put it. They actually conveyed it better than I have….
I’m losing my train of thought, a ll this late night baking for these endless parties…. I can hardly think straight today.
Anyway, I was thinking about all this and those convos and trying to put my finger on why the language of therapy just goes wrong in a political context. You know?
Therapy and an interaction with a therapist seems like one thing, but out here, it seems unproductive.
So, my vote is for getting rid of talk of feelings and triggers as a form of political talk. If, of course, folks want to talk about feelings and what traumas in their lives have created triggers for them, that’s something else. But as metaphors through which to talk about our political practices, together, I just don’t think it’s helpful.
Of course, voting is a kind of ridiculous metaphor to use in this particular discussion since democracy hardly applies either. :)
Wait, did you just post a private e-mail on your blog? That’s what it reads like to me. I know Belledame through her blog and I’d be surprised if she’d want a casual discussion between the two of you placed out on the internets for all to see, interpret and misinterpret. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I’m thinking this is real bad decision on your part and I’d encourage you to edit the post if you didn’t have permission to post the e-mail.
BL wrote: “I am troubled by what is being said that isn’t being said to me. I think it’s fair to say: please just repost the things you need to bitch about right there.”
Seriously, I don’t think that sort of thing works. Some people are comfortable communicating through blogs and comments but I think most people are not. People will bitch about us behind our backs. People will say things we don’t want to hear said about ourselves.
These same people have the ability to read our blogs and decide for themselves what they think about us and our opinions. Somebody dissing you or me on a private list isn’t really going to decide what others think about us.
I don’t expect you’ll turn on me because somebody somewhere writes a message attacking me, or questioning me, or quoting me out of context. I’ll give you the same respect, as well. It’s kind of basic human interaction 101, eh?
Exactly.
Gotta think about the psycho-talk thing a little more (and damn I never responded further to the OTHER thread I said I was going to think on… argh…) I read a post talking about that several months ago, and it really expressed the problem well, I think. I need to dig for it…
Raven –
I posted email from Ann Bartow to clarify a situation. I posted email from Belledame to clarify this one. [1]
As for the rest, I always look blonder on the Interwebs than I really am. I’m well aware that people gossip and say hurtful things behind one another’s backs. Hence, my request was that y’all not remind me of that by visiting. I’m not even interested in knowing that anything is said in defense of my position. Instead, please repost to the list anything you want to bitch about or praise — like this comment. [2]
As you said yourself about subscribing to a list whose members say hurtful things about what you stand for and believe in: no one should want to be around that, so let them have it. What I’ve asked is that members of the list rein in the frotteurism. It is forcing me to waste a lot of water, and there are drought conditions around here!
I apologize for being troubled. I mistakenly thought most people are hurt when they learn others have bad things to say about them when, otherwise, things seemed hunky dory. I’ll do my best to work on that defect.
[1]For the more clever among you, you may now take your reaction and consider my reaction when I learned that this list was banned to keep both Heart and me out. (Belledame’s reference to my supposed concerns about gossip this summer is based on, erm, fantasy.)
Which is precisely where the problem lies with private lists created in the name of feminism — lists that keep other feminists out on the basis of ideology or style or, as with the case of the transwomen wars, indefensible claims about their failure as women. They are a problem because where does the line get drawn? No one really knows until someone breaks the rules and exposes the tacit assumptions about what brings the group together. Consequently, the group is forced to articulate the hidden norms that guide their practices.
Which you are now doing at the list. Enjoy.
[2] I can translate that into French (txt), Swedish Chef (txt), Telugu (downloadable PDF), PhP (txt), Hindi (downloadable PDF), and C+ (txt) if anyone has trouble with the English version.
Heya QD:
Er, okay. I’m on a list. Why am I on the list? Well, because generally, I am persona non grata and utterly unwelcomed in a whole lot of feminist spaces because, well, I’m me. In the last year I’ve been threatened by feminists, blackmailed by feminists, lied about by feminists, hacked presumably by feminists, attacked by feminists, the recipient of some really nasty words, assumptions, comments and personal attacks from feminists and yeah, that shit sucks. And discussing it in blogs (when one can, without being threatened and blackmailed that is) just brings about MORE of the same. So, I need a place to vent, and get support and give support to like minded folk, to disucss things that I think might be of import, and bounce those ideas off of people who are not dead set on misconstruing every word I say or tearing me apart. I think way back I said something about not being able to work with anyone who failed to see me as a human being? Well, that theory still stands in my head, but it also goes now with I see no reason to talk to people who fail to see me as a human being…and all one need to do to see that there are plenty out there is to take a look around. I tried to be civil to everyone in the name of feminism, olive branch and all, and I got beat in the face with it for the effort. Repeatedly. I’m in no rush to do that again.
You’ve never been anything but civil to me, supportive even, and I appreciate that, but some folk? No, I really have no interest in speaking to or hearing from them at all.
And I think I have reason good enough.
Just my 2 cents.
No one was talking about you until you posted this. Then one person asked if this was about the list and included a link. Belle explained the exact same stuff to us that she explained to you. That because of the racist bullshit blowout we just had she wasn’t admitting any new members. She just wanted the dust to settle before anything else happened. The racist bullshit was started by your good lil buddy there, by the way. Did she bother to mention that to you? Or has she just been lying about how we are all talking about you all the time when word one was never said about you until now?
The list is for those of us who have been bashed on the internet for various reasons to have a safe space, as Ren explained. It is NOT a feminist list. It’s just friends supporting friends. You probably would have been admitted if you hadn’t chosen the worst possible time to ask.
For fuck sake at least have the decency to remove Belle’s email address from the copied email.
Also, to forestall the inevitable: separatism based on race and gender divisions in feminism don’t fall into that trap because they have explicit reasons for being there and they have made them up front so everyone is aware and has *chosen* to make this exclusion _known_ and they have made the decision collectively. This is why Kicking Ass is not the same thing.
Here’s the membership into to that list, which I offer to Ravenmn to reassure her that, gosh-a-golly, my powers of observing Human Interaction aren’t a complete wash. Now, I’m off to work on mastering the art of overcoming that tendency I have to be nonplussed
Thanks for responding RenEv. I appreciate your response. That was all I asked about. I could certainly understand and contrary to Ravenmn’s concerns am not at all surprised.
To clarify: Belledame did not leave open an offer to join when the dust settled. She just said No.
Donna –
Thanks for your comments.
To clarify:
1. I am not so conceited as to imagine that I was discussed at the list. I’m talking about now.
2. As I told Dead Inside on this blog, in comments, when Dead wondered if the rest of the bloggers were ignoring me: “of course not, out of sight out of mind. i hardly post and then bost boring ass stuff about my life?” (paraphrase)
3. Good point about the email
listaddy.4. Good point about it not being feminist.
5. Amber — she has a name — wasn’t the first to mention this list, though I was told about it in an oblique way and saw references to it that didn’t make sense until that oblique reference.
5. Amber came to me asking me if I could help her understand what had happened in that discussion. She felt badly and I felt that I could help her interpret what went wrong if I could read the exchange.
My comment above, about the use of the word “feelings” as if feelings are like the weather is precisely why I brought that up. Because I think that kind of language — while acceptable in therapy — presses buttons in discussions between white women and women of color. I would have gone on about this by looking up some posts I’d made way back when at Punkass Blog.
But other than that, I couldn’t discern exactly what was said in order to give her the benefit of what I’ve flailingly and imperfectly learned in the past.
And yes, Amber is my friend.
Finally, Amber has never discussed anything else that went on at the list because, unlike me, she belonged to it and felt beholden to its rules. In fact, she said so little about how it emerged and what it was about that I had to ask in a post to find out.
Now, I think that’s about all I have to say on the topic. Let me recap:
1. I asked honest questions about something that troubled me. I thought this was an explicitly feminist list and could not understand why I was being denied read only access and wasn’t extended an invitation to join later. I assumed there had to be good reasons for being on the list becuase I respected the people I assumed were members.
2. Respecting you and understanding your decision to be part of it doesn’t foreclose the possibility that I disagree with you. As evidence of that, I’d note that Ravenmn and kactus were invited to my other blog. If I couldn’t tolerate this, I wouldn’t have invited them.
That said, for others — and I’ve spoken to no one about this except publicly — I haven’t invited others on my blogroll because I don’t want people to feel uncomfortable given the situation. I do intend to invite my lefty friends, of course, but they aren’t involved in this.
I’m just not that interested in readers for a blog that is more personal in terms of sharing details of my activism and work life.
Thanks all for your observations and, yes, Ravenmn, even the snarky stuff about Human Interaction 101 :)
“I learned that this list was banned to keep both Heart and me out.”
Wait, Belle created a private list and the purpose of that list was to expressly prevent you and Heart from participating? I just searched your blog for the word “Heart” and I don’t find that many references. What is it that connects you and Heart enough to spawn a list whose purpose is to exclude you two specifically? And why would anyone join such a list? You two don’t have anything in common.
“I apologize for being troubled. I mistakenly thought most people are hurt when they learn others have bad things to say about them when, otherwise, things seemed hunky dory. I’ll do my best to work on that defect.”
I recognize that sarcasm!! OK, I missed the point then. You are accusing Belle of setting up a list specifically designed to attack and ban you (and Heart!) while Belle continues to be nice to you outside of that list. Therefore, its OK to post Belle’s e-mail as proof of your accusation.
BL, I gotta say that Belle’s e-mail doesn’t prove your accusation for me. You asked to join a list you cannot read (so how do you know it’s directed at you?) and Belle declined your request. That’s the only thing I get from that e-mail. I don’t know what list is being discussed, I don’t know the exact purpose of that list, and I don’t know that Belle spends her time attacking you on a private list.
It’s a fucking list, and a fairly stupid one at that, if the only reason it exists is to exclude two people with nothing in common. Definitely not worth tossing basic netiquette to the wind.
I respect both you and Belle and I don’t want to judge either of you based solely on a private e-mail you decided to post here. I won’t do that to either of you.
BL: “Which is precisely where the problem lies with private lists created in the name of feminism — lists that keep other feminists out on the basis of ideology or style or, as with the case of the transwomen wars, indefensible claims about their failure as women. They are a problem because where does the line get drawn? No one really knows until someone breaks the rules and exposes the tacit assumptions about what brings the group together. Consequently, the group is forced to articulate the hidden norms that guide their practices.”
Again, I disagree. A private list is not a democracy and nobody expects it to be one. The list owner has power and no one else. Nobody with half a brain has any doubt about the only rule that matters: don’t piss off the list owner.
I ask again, please remove the private e-mail from your blog. Remove the private e-mail addy at least.
I’m sorry if this makes me a bad friend to you. I’ve learned a lot from you and I think you are awesome in all kinds of ways. Whatever happens, I wish you the best.
Funny. Wonder why I might not feel so welcome ’round those parts, hmm?
This so reminds me of ChasingMoksha when she pulled the Asian racism bullshit and whined about how everyone was against her. Um Amber, if you say racist things, people will object. They will only coddle you so far when you continue to say racist things. No one told you to hate your mom for saying racist things, but how about you could say, “Mom, don’t say things like that around me. I don’t agree with it.” Unfortunately, you probably do agree though.
B|L if you really want to try to get her to understand, just check out her friend’s site. Amber added it into that discussion by saying her friend isn’t racist, just honest(, like Amber). She’s honestly racist, if you ask me.
You could start with the ones tagged race or racism.
http://debrisblanche.blogspot.com/search/label/racism
http://debrisblanche.blogspot......label/race
“Can you help me understand why you thought it was a good idea to join and participate and, if those were the conditons, keep it secret?”
I’m on an email list and for me it’s been a good idea just the way going to a party or joining a team or attending a class can be interesting and good ideas. Those groupings aren’t all-inclusive either — much in life isn’t. Email groups, such as the one I am on, can lead to more interesting, diverse, and in many cases irreverent and open kinds of conversations than real life does much of the time.
Openness is great and is found on many places online, and email lists are something anyone can create and host. It’s up to the host(ess) how big the group gets. Just like any group, a family, a company, whatever, there’s a comfortable size and configuration.
The idea of openness as a panacea generally can be deceptive, though. All of us benefit from privacy once in awhile, and usually those of us who want certain situations to be more open are happy to have the private ones we enjoy stay that way.
Case in point: email. We give our email to good pals, sometimes online merchants, and other limited sources. This is not a new phenomenon and it’s one that should be respected. Trumpeting openness via revealing Belle’s email, especially where the form I’m typing into right now says “email (will not be shown) (required)” is inappropriate at the very least. In my book, an important criterion for inclusion on an email list would be trust about revealing information… such as: email.
Donna –
First things first. I was really taken aback at how civil you were to me. I appreciate it, particularly because I thought you were very upset with me when I never heard from you last summer. Of course, I read your blog when I got time and realized you’d been in the midst of a move all the way to NH. So, I had to consider you were just very very busy. Still, I thought things were irrevocably broken so I stayed away.
So, again, I thank you very much for finding it in your heart to forgive those bad feelings last summer.
Second, I am racist. So, that Amber or anyone else is doesn’t surprise me. But, I’m just repeating what you already know and what I’ve learned from RWOC bloggers and writers more generally. I just wanted to make that view clear up front, ‘coz I know not all white folks share that view. (e.g., I read Amanda using it in a totally cynical way once. ptui. Basically, she said something like, “we’re all racist, so it’s unremarkable. *shrug*.” I don’t
argueagree with THAT take on it.)Third, you raise a really good point that you and other RWOC blogger have made: the need to talk about both structural, non-intentional, covert racism and what you are identifying as a different form of racism you see in Amber’s friend and, possibly, Amber. as I’ve read you and RWOC bloggers, you’re pointing at overt cultural racism. Right?
Fourth, I definitely don’t take a cotton to Blanche’s views — the overt cultural racism. you raise a good point about how important context is. That was why I’d like to be able to read what was said at the list — in order to understand what was going on — and Amber just knew she couldn’t be completely objective or trust her memory as to what happened. As you noted, there was a misunderstanding re: her mother. That happens and she was aware that she couldn’t be completely certain she was understanding correctly. Still, I got excited when I read this because I, for a fleeting minute there, I had hope: Maybe donna could send me the whole email exchange so I could finally — finally — understand what the hell is going on. Alas, I am a dreamer.
finally, the whole issue of how to deal with racist (and heterosexist, ans sexist, and bigots, etc.) among family, friend, and co-workers is really interesting and I’m very sorry I missed it. I had one hella time with that in the spring. ugh.
Anyway, I need to keep my sanity and my job! and not read comments for a while, but I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you on issues as important as this.
Take care and thanks.
I don’t recall saying she wasn’t racist. I *do* recall saying I respect that she is working through racism and white privilege in an honest, unapologetic, public way, and that she refuses to back down, because she honestly wants to learn and grow. (It doesn’t hurt, either, than I know her IRL and know *the complete person* and not just the blogosphere incarnation.) I have a hell of a lot more respect for that than for people I barely know online bullying me and others.
This is such petty bullshit. “Ooh, look at her friend! Don’t you hate her now?? Gossip gossip gossip!!!” I hated that shit when I was *in* high school, at this point it’s just pathetic.
Oh, Amber. Did you really feel unwelcome? I’m sure you felt really cozy when you told everyone that women of color calling out racism were most likely jackasses and whiners, right? ‘Cause, let me tell you, I as a woman of color felt fucking fantastic reading things like that from you.
This is why I can’t stand having discussions like these about racism; all the hits allegedly go only one way. “I think that when people talk about racism they’re often being jackasses; oh I can’t say that?! Well I feel silenced and I don’t like that feeling!
I am entitled to my opinion!”
When throughout most of the conversation, people who were and still are your friends tried to converse with you about what you were saying because there were women of color who blog about racism and feminism constantly, reading what you were saying, and probably felt silenced and unentitled to their opinions because you essentially said you felt like they were full of shit from the beginning.
And when they did speak, boy, they were angry! Guess that’s not very welcoming!
I say this with as much respect as I can muster because I do actually have some respect for you, even though it rapidly fades the more that events like these continue.
Clue. Get you one.
Oh, Donna, you’ve got me! You’re so totally right! I completely agree with my mom, which is clearly why I brought up DEALING WITH PEOPLE WE LOVE WHO ARE RACIST WHO WE DON’T AGREE WITH. Yes, I 100% agree with my mom and it totally doesn’t bother me at all and I have obviously NEVER in all my 28 years said ONE WORD to her about disagreeing, and everything is just peachy keen!
You’ll pardon my shouting; this is fucking absurd. Thanks for proving *perfectly* the point I was trying to make about asshole behavior getting excused in the name of “anti-racism.” Fuck that shit.
Seriously, if that is how you read my comments, then I do not know what to do. I acknowledged that I might not be being clear enough and I tried to clarify as much as possible. Sometimes I am not good at expressing what I mean via the written word, but I always try. I do find it difficult to believe that after all my explaining and attempts at clarifying, that *that* is what you truly got out of it.
I mean I remember saying at least once and maybe twice (can’t remember my exact phrasingin bc I don’t have access to the archives anymore) that I was *not* talking about legitimate critiques WOC have, and I was *not* talking about how those critiques often get dismissed by white feminists as “whining.” I also wrote, a few months ago, several blog posts about why that tactic (white feminists dimissing WOC’s critiques as jealousy or whining) was foolish. I tried, in the thread on the list, to make it explicitly clear that I was talking *specifically* about occasions when people show their ass and then try to excuse it by claiming it’s in the name of anti-racism (or anti-sexism, or anti-homophobia, or whatever else - but since race was the topic at hand, that is what I focused on). I briefly tried to relate it to my experience w/ my ex who was trans, who did all kinds of abusive things in our relationship and then tried to absolve herself of any responsibility by saying, “Well, I’m trans, things are really hard for me.”
THAT was my point.
I truly do not know how I can be clearer.
Additionally, Sylvia, since you DO have access to the list archives, perhaps you could post some of the exchange (either my initial post, or some responses, or ideally both - although I know it got really really long and hard to keep track of - and I also acknowledge I may have missed some crucial pieces in the discussion bc I was out of town at the time and had only spotty internet access). I think that would actually be really good as then Queer Dewd could see what was said - as could anyone else who was not involved and is curious. I stand by all my words and I only ask that they be represented accuratley in the original context. Maybe if you post what I said, if there are things that aren’t clear then people can ask me about them and I can try to be clearer.
Also, this is not a snarky comment. I know sometimes it is hard via the internet to tell when someone is being sarcastic and when they are being serious. I am being serious here. Yes, I was being snarky and downright pissed off to Donna, because her comments made my jaw hit the floor. But this is a sincere comment.
Oy, I am gonna be sorry for wading into this. But here goes.
Amber, I went back to the archives, and I found this quote, which is what I personally found troubling. You wrote:
1) Define “progress” first. Progress towards what? Who is benefiting from said progress? Maybe it isn’t actually “progress” from everyone’s point of view?
2) As I see it, most “progress” HAS been made by people venting their spleens; in consciousness-raising groups, in gay bars, in the Civil Rights movement, in the anti-war movement, disability rights movement, et. al. Until people vent their spleens, they don’t even realize they AGREE with each other in the first place, much less figure out how to solve problems.
So, why do you assume the venting is bad, when I see it as a necessary first step?
3) Move on to–what? Solving the problem or ignoring it?
4) When you have had issues with men as a feminist (and I’ve called men assholes plenty of times), why did you have them? Was it because they seemed to not get it and dig in their heels? How did you experience them at that moment? Have you ever thought non-queer or non-sex-positive people were being particularly obtuse? How did that feel?
Why don’t you simply assume that POC are having that kind of moment with you, rather than just assume they are wrong or won’t “move on”?
5) When you say “they” never transcend it, who is “they”, exactly? In what way does racism have to do with sidewalk repair? I’m very serious now.
When we tried (or I did) to ask you to clarify, you got mad and ran off. That was never my intention, you know that I like you. But those are some serious things to say.
As for “Hey, thanks for total writing me off! Buh-bye now!”–that is how I felt you treated those of us who were trying to dialog with you in a spirit of good will. :( I felt totally written off.
And then, this reply from you, after your above comment:
I think this is what Donna and Sylvia refer to.
Really quick bc dinner is almost ready…
Actually I agree w/ you that venting is a necessary first step. That’s why I said it’s necessary and then you move on.
I am not the first to express this sentiment. I remember a post Trinity wrote fairly recently, where she was saying that one of the reasons she decided radical feminism wasn’t for her was because it seemed to be all raw anger all the time, and never moving forward and galvanizing that energy into *action* (I’m paraphrasing poorly; I can find the post later if you want).
Solving the problem.
“They” in that graf referred to the county commission in my hometown.
As for what ways racism has to do w/ sidewalk repair, that I don’t have time to get into right now (food calls) btu it’s a long an complicated story that I think is hard to explain to someone who hasn’t lived there for a while and seen how the politics of the town work… but I can try later.
There’s already so mch other stuff I’m behind on responding to though, and I feel badly about that, so I might not get to it right away.
A few other things, quickly…
BL/QD, here is the post I mentioned about “therapy speak” being abused: http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=169
I thought that post put things very well.
Also, re:
The way I’ve always understood and practiced it is, not “these are my feelings and I can’t really help it” but more of “these are my feelings, I am responsible for them, and what can/should I do with them?” It’s often about - yes, here comes that word! - examining. The latter statement (from your original comment) paints it as of the person has no responsibility for his or her feelings and, by extension, actions. The former statement is saying that the person has *ultimate* and *sole* responsibility for his or her feelings and, by extension, actions.
Er, I got latter and former reversed. Oops. Guess that comment doesn’t make much sense that way!
One other link (last comment for a while, I swear) - here is a post Trinity wrote in response to the Ballastexistenz post, with some additional thoughts which I also found really well put: http://trinityva.livejournal.com/666451.html
Wait, Belle created a private list and the purpose of that list was to expressly prevent you and Heart from participating? I just searched your blog for the word “Heart” and I don’t find that many references. What is it that connects you and Heart enough to spawn a list whose purpose is to exclude you two specifically? And why would anyone join such a list? You two don’t have anything in common.
===
The correct sentence would be, “What connects you and Heart that you’ve both been barred from the list?”
I can see why you’d misinterpret, if all you are interested in is uncharitable readings. But you know perfectly well what I meant was this. Most of you find it acceptable that Belledame bars trolls, Heart, Ginmar, Samburger, MRMs. They are all likely to take a shit in her living room. Shortly after making the list private, in response to my request to join, she said no. Because I apparently I was likely to take a shit in living room. Oh, maybe it’d be for good reasons, but the message was clear: you’re a potential shitter, so no.
What connects us is that we’re outside the livingroom. What connects us is Belldame’s judgement that we’d take a shit in her living room. What, I suspect, makes us different is that we’d shit for different reasons. Or maybe she thinks it’s all the same. In either case, in the end, it’s the same result: closed livingroom with me left with the likes of Heart and all my other blogging friends. *snort*
Now, I was nonplussed to find myself standing outside the living room next to Heart, Ginmar, trolls, and MRMS where all the people I love and care about are hanging out.
I was nonplussed to have it suggested that I couldn’t be bothered not to take a shit in her livingroom.
That is hasn’t occurred to you, or anyone really, to recognize that I was and remain very hurt — not just that Belledame would suggest that I’d somehow shit in livingroom, but that not one person thought I should belong in the living room in the first place so you couldn’t be bothered to extend an invitation — for I initially assumed it was by word of mouth.
Just: wow. And yeah: I extend that hurt feeling to even Amber when I found out she knew and didn’t bother to let me know about it.
So, there was no email posted her that embarrasses BD in any way to my mind. Your behavior, as in all of you, suggested to me that you agreed with the contents of BD’s note and so nothing could be embarassing about it. I corrected the record so no one would think I was making up anything about why I was denied membership. Coz, if you’ll recall, I’d said she’d used the word “triggered”.
She did not.
Of course, now I understand that it was BD’s livingroom and by her invite only — or that’s what I’m going to believe since it’s less painful to think BD just doesn’t want me around, than to think all of you do and just never bothered to tell me.
If you’d like to discuss this further, it’ll have to be offblog. I do not want to derail a conversation that has morphed and should be focused on race, not on high school games. (and yes, I consider it a high school game to post an comment in which you refuse to acknowledge that you were actually a member of the list. That kind of stuff is worthy of Bill Clinton, no you.) i;e left blogging for good. Later.
deleted by QD
I REPEAT: the conversation is offline. right now, this conversation is about race.
Deleted. See comment #31
I apologize. It never occurred to me that this blog would not be the place to post a self-referential gordian knot of backhanded sarcasm. I’m not interested in exchanging a bunch of private emails with you about how wrong and immoral and unjust it is to exchange private emails with people. So I suppose the subject is closed.
But since we’re talking about race now that you’ve posted six paragraphs worth of the by-default last word on that other thing we’re no longer discussing? Perhaps it’d be good to talk about how Amber has successfully switched the venue for this strictly-race discussion. It began in a multi-user group that included women of color and white women, one where–at least–comments didn’t just disappear. Now it’s been moved to the demesne of just one white person with total control–and, oddly enough, the mean-snarky-honest-filter seems to have been adjusted into a rather counterintuitive setting, just speaking for myself. Is that about race or about petty interpersonal bullshit that isn’t worth discussing except with certain people in private?
Fuck it. I can discuss strictly race in a place where derails are evaluated on their (relative) merits. I’ll go do that instead.
piny –
Here’s a compromise, coz I can entirely understand why you wouldn’t want to exchange private email.
1. Someone can copy the entire exchange, minus the offensive email, to their own blog or, probably better, to a blogspot or wordpress throwaway blog. It’s a lot of work, but I’d be willing to format it and pass it along to you or whomever else wants to do it.
2. The latter option would be great, that way folks can have their say and the blog can then be deleted or ignored and left to the spammers when everyone’s done.
3. Then, if you want to discuss “about how wrong and immoral and unjust it is to exchange private emails with people” or your concerns about Amber and racism (since I can see what made folks upset from just a glimpse) or anything else, that’d be great. I’m all eyes.
4. Then, someone can send me a notification through another throwaway email account such as gmail, yahoo, hotmal.
5. If I email anyone from here or receive anonymous mail about the blog, I promise to not say a word in response or attached to the formatted exchange I offered to send in 1. above. I will respond to the blog discussion if that’s what you and others want. If not, then I’ll just read. Yes, I understand: y’alldon’t trust me. But Im’ pretty sure you don’t base your judgments on just one incident and have a couple of years worth of interactions to decide if this was a one-off on my part, or just the way I’ve always been. I will trust y’all to be fair in that judgement and give good reasons that I should consider one way or another.
I have to head off to work and won’t get out ’til very later. I was promoted to lead developer last week and am now responsible for a site launch on the 26th, so not much time and unprepared for it on such short notice. If you scroll the front page, you can see that i don’t blog much. I did a little more last week, but did delete posts that contained references to work and pictures of me and friends.
It’s funny (in a kind of grim way) that people are now ascribing all these nefarious motives to me. I didn’t “switch the venue” in some plot to control the conversation. The entire reason I initially brought up the subject on the list was *because* it was “a multi-user group that included women of color and white women, one where–at least–comments didn’t just disappear.” When it became clear that that conversation was not wanted, I left.
I don’t have a thick skin like some folks do. I often wish I did. But I don’t. Never have. All my life people (including my parents) have told me “Don’t be so sensitive!” in a really derisive way, as if being sensitive was bad. That has always hurt. I can’t change that part of me.
For me things *do* ultimately come back to feelings and personal emotions and how that plays into community and communication. I know BL and I differ on this, which is fine, bc I don’t expect everyone to approach everything exactly the same! And yes I know it might sound like some hippie-dippie shit, but that’s how I approach things, it’s what has worked for me throughout my life, and it’s what helps me keep a modicum of sanity. You can agree or disagree but for my life that’s how I approach things… includin gblogging. that’s why I don’t have a “political blog”.
BL has seen some of my comments but not all. I do wish someone would post the entire thread somewhere (I know it’s huge and would take up a lot of space, but I feel it’s only fair) so she can see the entire thing, bc as it is she has only part of the picture. I still stand by all my words, and at the same time acknowledge that not all of them may have been crystal clear… because I’m human and I am not always able to find the best words to describe what I want to convey.
The problem seems basic. There is a private e-mail list. Things have been said on that list that Amber has questions about. Amber has decided to involve somebody who is not on the private list, B|L, to help Amber figure this out.
Amber had other choices. Amber could have appealed to other people who are on the private mailing list for a better understanding of what occurred. She could have appealed to the moderator of the private list. She could have confronted directly those people with whom she disagreed. She chose not to do that.
Instead, Amber’s chose to reveal a private mailing list to B|L. One result is that B|L became pissed that she was not invited to be a part of that private list. Is this a coincidence? Or was Amber pretty damn sure B|L would be upset? And did B|L confirm Amber’s suspicion by posting her anger and sadness in this thread?
In addition, B|L has also chosen to ignore privacy ethics both by posting private e-mails from Belle and by exposing my own membership on the private e-mail list. B|L feels justified in ignoring basic privacy ethics because she doesn’t believe anything said would embarrass Belle or myself.
I firmly believe that this is not a choice B|L has right to make for Belle or me or anyone else. Reveal anything private about yourself: your choice. Reveal private communications with others, you lose my trust.
Now that both Amber and B|L have thrown privacy ethics to the wind, they request that someone ELSE on the private e-mail list out both themselves and any number of people who happened to discuss issues with Amber on a private e-mail list in the full expectation that their private opinions would remain private.
What we have here, is a losing proposition. If you believe in respecting privacy, then you cannot reveal these private conversations no matter what arguments Amber of B|L make about the benefits of doing so.
This does not have to end the conversation. Both Amber and B|L have other options. You are both able to learn and grow and prosper as you interact with people of color online. The fact that some people choose to respect privacy does not in any way prevent you from learning and growing and become the best people that you can hope to be.
Please understand that my commitment to a respect for privacy in no way prevents you and I from discussing all sorts of issues.
I didn’t think I was “revealing” anything, Raven. I thought BL already knew about it.
ALso, what else did I “reveal” other than the list’s existence (which as I said, I assumed BL knew about)? After unsubbing I was unable to access the archives.
Hi Amber. I have no way to know what you have chosen to reveal other than what you’ve said here.
Here’s what I do know. You revealed the existence of a private list to B|L. You assumed B|L knew about it. You were wrong in your assumption.
So that’s pretty basic. You agreed to keep the list private when you signed up and you didn’t fulfill that agreement.
You didn’t have to rely on your assumptions before revealing the list to B|L. You could have asked the list owner. You could have asked your friends who you know are on the list. You chose, instead, the option that meant you MIGHT break the privacy agreement that you entered into when you joined the list. And you did break that agreement.
I don’t understand why this is NOT a problem for you. I don’t understand why you have not apologized to Belle, to B|L and to other members of the private list.
This would be step one if I were in your situation. You broke a promise that you made. You didn’t intend to, but you did. So own up to it. Apologize for it.
But you haven’t apologized and it doesn’t seem to have occurred to you to do so. It’s like the first, second and third thing I would have done were I in your shoes.
Privacy is important to me for all kinds of reasons. I was stalked. I moved repeatedly. I gave up friends and family who wouldn’t respect my privacy. I’ve worked in the battered women’s movement. Privacy. Very important to me.
When I make a promise, I try to respect it. All of the people involved in the private mailing list made that same promise and most of us are keeping it.
It feels like my privacy and Belle’s and every one else’s are being ignored so that you, a white woman, can share with B|L, another white woman, your experiences in a private conversation about race. To you and B|L, the community’s agreement to keep conversations private is unimportant when stacked up against your personal goal of understanding what you said and did to piss people off.
You have lots of ways of learning how to better interact with women of color. This is not a productive way to do so, imo.
raven
more later, but people make assumptions about the world they live in. they have to. in this case, 10 months ago, well shoot, 1 month ago for that matter, i’d think it’d be really weird to assume that anyone would have to ask if bl/qd would have known about the list.
i was personally unaware that i was someone who would never have been extended an invite in the first place. though i’d be gratified to learn why that’s the case.
as i’ve said before, i pretty much know zippo about the list, who belonged, when it started, who started it, why. the ONLY think i knew that it was once open and then became private in the month of december or maybe novemeber. is hould correct that: i didn’t KNOW this. I just gathered that from what A said: that the list had been wide open for anyone to read and join and that it only recently became private b/c people didn’t want heart and others to know about it.
anyway, i have to work this weekend and i gotta head. see y’all sometime after didi mau time.
Q|D, the thing about private communities is that the people within them agree to keep them private. Not only do they keep their existence private, they keep the reason for their existence private.
You write: “in this case, 10 months ago, well shoot, 1 month ago for that matter, i’d think it’d be really weird to assume that anyone would have to ask if bl/qd would have known about the list.”
Well, maybe yes, maybe no.
You don’t know the reason for the list. You don’t know the membership criteria. You don’t have access to the contents of the list. So how can you make this claim?
Please consider that you may have been seriously misled. Ask the logical questions.
Why would anyone imply that a list exists that practically begs for your inclusion and yet is somehow inaccessible to you? Who gains from asking you to believe this?
If friends of yours choose to engage in private conversations outside your hearing, does that necessarily lead to the conclusion that you are a bad person? Or are other reasons possible?
Remember how we connected by talking about how we felt interacting with middle class white women’s movements? Remember how it felt to know that you and I understood how weird that was?
Did you conclude, then, that what we were really doing was attacking white women in the feminist movement? Were we concentrating on insulting and excluding crappy women? No. I don’t believe that.
We were changing the focus and honoring ourselves. We were recognizing something good and special about ourselves that was missing in that strange world.
Seriously, B|L, just ask the obvious questions. That’s as much as I can tell you while maintaining the promises I intend to keep.
OK. I can see that. so, I wasn’t considered part of your community. That’s all I wanted to know. Well, I would have liked to have known why, but I can see that you value the community and its rules, and that this ethical value is higher than others you might also subscribe to.
So, no more questions from me. I honestly had no idea that it was that important. Belledame’s discription made the list sound frivilous, as if she was disappointed in the gossip and bashing, and wanted it to go in other directions and she was “working on” that. Had she said something about the need for privacy and would I please not say anything, I certainly would have honored her request. But since she said nothing, I had no idea that anyone was supposed to keep it a secret, or that this secrecy was to protect special vulnerable conversations.
But, this is all a good example of why Janet Halley’s analysis of power would be a really great framework to understand all of this.
take care R and thanks for being civil.
You’re really attributing way too many complex, weird motives to me. It’s as simple as this: I figured BL knew about it because, well, why wouldn’t she? Everyone else who I considered in the fairly vast “circle of friends” (for lack of a better term; I’m tired) was invited so to me it didn’t even enter my mind that she wouldn’t be. I knew she wasn’t *on* the list but I figured (inasmuch as I gave it any thought, which was practically nil) that she was too busy w/ moving, new job, etc. This isn’t a far-fetched assumption… I mean for the first several months that I was subscribed, I never read it at all, bc I was too busy with other things.
heh. so it’s been around several months at least? whatever.
If someone can’t look at Bell, Renagade and to a certain extent Amanda, and see those three for what they are — well, I can’t help that lost soul. Have no idea what a shrink would say, but I’d classify them as stirrers-of-shit, especially Bell and RE, and let them be drama queens all by their lonesome if that’s what turns them on.
Nice blog, btw, you seem like a very nice and thoughtful person.