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Empathy, sympathy, and reintegrative shaming
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For what it’s worth, I don’t like Bitch Lab, I don’t read her, I don’t think she’s very bright, and I think the main thing she piggybacked on recently was a comment thread to a post she didn’t author. Nice appropriation, that.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
01-09-2007
Just go ahead and bitch
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on one hand - I’m less annoyed with the naming-names approach (such as it was) than I am with the “certain people” approach, which always makes me feel like I’m back in sixth grade.
However, I thought that AD actually might have a valid point (even though she may have expressed it kind of clumsily at first) and I really did wind up examining my posting behavior. so, that’s all to the good.
but I don’t get Stormcloud, and I don’t see how she expects anyone to take her seriously, especially now she’s gone private.
people respond to offense with defense. or with counteroffense. I’m not proud, or sorry. but what did she expect? Her post was a deliberate shot across the bow, only barely disguised as humor, at people whom she knew good and well were at least occasional readers.
pornie princess –
who is AD?
Stormcloud may have gone private because she was getting a lot of flack.
I left a post that wasn’t published (at least not before she went behind a login screen) that said
- First of all, bumblebees (which she put at the pinnacle of feminism) are typically the least social of the social insects
- Bees in general (her designation for feminists) get most of their nutrition from sucking juice from the genital area of flowers (flowers being her designation for *men!*) Meanwhile most wasps (her designation for sexually assertive women like RE and Amber) are carnivorous and therefore aren’t nearly as dependent on men as bees are.
- Bees, wasps, ants, and the rest of her taxonomy are all members of the hymenoptera, which is rhetorically kind of weird since hymens are a registered trademark of the *real* wingnuts.
And finally, to be blunt, I said I think this whole feud is kind of stupid, that all of you share 95% of the same political and social objectives and that if you’re all slugging it out in the gutter over doctrinal issues the social conservatives who are the *real* problem can just step across you, and moderates and fence sitters who might otherwise get off the fence ask why they should listen to *either* side… and then go hang out with the social conservatives who offer them tea.
What I did not say in my comment to her, but I will say here, is “Never wrestle with a pig. You’ll both get covered in shit but the pig likes it. And nobody’s going to want to shake the winner’s hand.”
I’m just saying I wish everybody spent more of their considerable talent and energy battling the *real* sexual outrages in society instead of wasting time flaming each other.
figleaf
Computer crash ate my post. Grrr.
AD is AradhanaD (from your post below) I think.
Glad to finally read this. If you put aside the name calling, there’s a point of view there worth discussing. When I get the mythical time I keep mentioning, I’ll give it a shot.
Oh, gee, but this is waaaaaaaaay too funny.
I guess that FairWeatherCumulusCloud just can’t stand being called out on her and her antiporn allies’ bullshit, so why not break out the bad “wasps and ants and honeybees vs. bees” analogy (funny, but in the real world, they all seem to cohabitate quite well together) and then break out the bad gloss. (”Ambutt”?!?!?! “Retrograde Evolution”?!?! “BelleDodo”?!?! “Pornie Princess?!?!) Damn…I wonder what she would come up with for real critics like BA or BfP??
And to run behind the firewall of privatization after posting this blast….how so typical.
I really wish that Blogger wasn’t down right about now, so that I could read BA’s counter to this nonsense. I wish that Stormy would even attempt to make up a “funny pseudomym” for her…but then again, that would mean actually engaging with and acknowledging a WOC, which would kinda violate the radfem “hivemind”, now wouldn’t it?? I guess that they would be considered hornets or hummingbirds, perhaps???
This Black ant….errrrrr…’Dog….is seriously tempted to drop a nice rejoinder to these fools…but it’ll have to wait until tomorrow, on my day off from work.
Anthony
(Legal Guardian of the Pro-Porn Fire Ants and Honeybee Committee)
Figleaf wrote:
I’m just saying I wish everybody spent more of their considerable talent and energy battling the *real* sexual outrages in society instead of wasting time flaming each other.
First, there’s no reason to assume all folks involved in this debate are not using their talent and energy battling real-world evil. Discussing theory happens to be an interestting tactic for many of us and helps us in our activism. Not being aware of our differences has hurt the movement tremendously in the past repeatedly.
Despite all the messiness, this really is real-world business.
- Bees, wasps, ants, and the rest of her taxonomy are all members of the hymenoptera, which is rhetorically kind of weird since hymens are a registered trademark of the *real* wingnuts.
LMAO. OK, this is something I would never have learned on my own. This is why I stay away from metaphors. I always get something basic wrong! Thanks for the info, Figleaf!
Ahem, and neatly filed under “typical”. My typical file is getting damn full these days.
Okay, off to find someone elses ass that is almost mine…
This is why I prefer to make fun of people plain so nobody gets confused. This bee stuff is too confusing for me. So is jackgoff a flower? or is he a wasp? *confused*
Aha.Thanks Ravenmn.
So, antiprincess, I’m not curious what you were agreeing with AradhanaD about? How did you see your past actions and do you plan on changing them — or just thinking about them?
Look forward to hearing more Ravenmn — and if I had some mythical time, I’d gladly donate!
I’m afraid I am not too worked up about much of this stuff these days.
I am, in my gut, very uncomfortable with anything that smacks of proselytyzing and converting. I didn’t care for it when I thought that radfems who’d gone over to “the other side” seemed to be upheld as a nice case of “See, there. Nyeh. Nyeh. She’s no longer a radfem”. But I wasn’t certain that was the aittitude that was going on.
AP — should be “I am NOW curious…”
Figleaf — that was very informative. I didn’t even think about wasps being carnivorous! LOL (Which is funny b/c that’s the argument made in the post where I quoted from a Bad Subjects article, “I’d rahter be a whore than an academic….”
Don’t like to use the wrasslin’ with pig metaphors too much myself. I guess it’s not much different than me saying: it’s not worth my time.
But like I said above, I’m inherently uncomfortable with the idea that any of this is about conversion. I think there are some important, intractable differences that aren’t about to go away.
As someone who likes to think of the very real possibility of creating a new world, I think part of what we do here is carve out what Harry Boyte and Sara Evans called “free spaces” where we learn how to create, together, the rules that we want to live by. Which means we sort of practice for a better world. Dialogic engagement in these spaces can, if nothing else, hone the kinds of skills we’ll absolutely need a truly democratic future. There, we’ll have to negotiate, learn how to listen to one another, learn how to map out our commonalities and differences, learn how to hear and repeat back what others are saying and they in return. For whatever else we do in that world I like to envision, I’m guessing that skills like that will be imperative.
Since we learn them in very few other places this is about all we have. We don’t learn them in the workplace, where everything is geared towardkeeping our jobs and the almighty dollar. We don’t learn them in the polis, where we have a choice between tweedledee and tweedledum, where participation is limited, largely, to voting, passive acts of consumption rather than active acts of citizenship.
what does actually make me smile in all of this is the number of feminists of all bents who have stopped by Wasp Colony del Evolution to say “um, this is bullshit”. Yes, I ranted twice about this whole load the aforementioned substance where I used oh, a wee bit of logic and reason along with my pornified wasp stinger to poke holes in all her shit…it was good rant-therapy and amusing…and full of pretty pictures (and my new official logo!)…
And yeah, AK, I would love to see what sort of gradeschool nickname she came up with for that BadAssBlackAmazon…but it seems now that she knows a lot of folks, even in her own camp, did not see the humor or, let alone ‘concerned factual information’ and wisdom of her post she has decided to stop sharing such things with the people…
Alas… might be funny to see what she is spouting at the moment, at least for entertainments sake.
Ha!
RenEv
Pro-Pornie Scum
Big Meanie
& Henchwoman o’ The Patriarchy
(still crushing on Queer Dewd)
So, antiprincess, I’m not curious what you were agreeing with AradhanaD about? How did you see your past actions and do you plan on changing them — or just thinking about them?
I assume you mean you are curious, yeah?
well, AD seemed to be saying that she noticed that whenever someone in the fem/radfemblogosphere took issue with some aspect of radfem thought or a particular radfem’s online behavior, a few of the same people rushed immediately to comment and comiserate and offer sympathy etc.
and I think I really do that. I think I am one of the first to say “yeah, I remember when that happened to me…”, “I felt awful when…”, “Doesn’t it suck when…”
etc.
I didn’t realize I was causing damage by doing that. And I can see where someone might think that such behavior is damaging.
so, sadder/wiser, in that respect. I certainly won’t be the first to comment anymore.
But, on ADs thread, it’s not like I (as part of the undesirable crowd comprised of “certain people”) was really able to take that on, and talk about it. the Certain Peoples were asked not to comment, and I think for the most part we did.
She did allow the one comment I made through her moderation. which was nice of her. but that was just not the appropriate battleground to thrash it out.
antiprincess –
Do you never participate in their blog otherwise?
Ravenmn wrote:
*heart throbs*
see, in addition to wishing to go to MN so I can sit by you as I soak up your wisdom about typography (i’m just an untrained wannabee who’d really like to work in a real shop learning from pros!), I also need more of that activist wisdom.
I’m not altogether too certain that there’d be agreement on “real sexual outrages” even if we focused on them.
Elayne Rapping wrote a book review of Radically Speaking. She pointed out several problems with the book, but one of her more astute observations was that radical feminism made solid inroads wherever your found feminism first emerging. But the problem is, once you make those basic strikes against patriarchy, things break down.
Well, here. I’ll let Rapping do the talking:
Because, seriously, if anyone asked me to stop putting my energies toward welfare and economic equity in order to fight pornography, I’d laugh in their face. Seriously.
At the same time, I’d *never* ask any radical feminist worth her salt to address the issues that outrage _me_ in terms of economic injustice, etc. I know what matters to them and why and to expect them to drop their concerns to put mine first just seems disrepsectful as all gittout.
((((QueerDewd))))
QD: “I know what matters to them and why and to expect them to drop their concerns to put mine first just seems disrepsectful as all gittout.”
Yes, but you can say that if you believe that smashing patriarchy will solve all the other problems. It’s lke you and I are just whacking away at the wrong targets and need our heads straightened out by our betters.
From stormclooud: “…yes, unfortunately, as a political movement one does have to choose sides this is not necessarily in a schoolyard kind of way, but to facilitate the political aims.”
By refusing to take their side, we harm their political aims.
Rapping said: “..those who remain in the radical feminist fold tend to focus almost exclusively on certain kinds of activism–that which targets pornography and sexual violence…”
Yeah, the turn to the legal system to solve problems is a huge problem. But I don’t see anything inherent in radfem philosophy that says one has to support law enforcement. I’m holding out hope that future radfem activists will leave that tactic behind.
I think the basic problem you and I have is because of our involvement in the union movement. Some not-very legal tactics are pretty common there and nobody expects law enforcement to support the workers.
Like during the grape strike when we all put grapes in the bottom of our shopping carts, then started throwing canned goods on top of them. We’d get to the counter and say, “Oh, no! These grapes look all smashed! I’m not buying these!” Hee.
we see how, at their much later stage of political development, those who remain in the radical feminist fold tend to focus almost exclusively on certain kinds of activism–that which targets pornography and sexual violence–and try to curb these things through the law and criminal justice system. None of the other issues that liberal and left-oriented feminists consider vital, such as economic equity, welfare, child care, workplace organizing and health care, is mentioned.
that’s where I’m coming from queer…bitch…what is your name now????? lol. anyway. seriously–you have to think, WHY is there such a focus on porn? is it because porn is the one area where violence against whiteness is centered? In other words–what is the “color” of nation/state violence? What is the “color” of porn?
oh, and (shakes head)…bees? For real? wasps? queen bees? People come to feminism to follow?
the woman posting at resisterance–I don’t agree with a lot of what she says, but she’s nailed this one right on the head when she says that she didn’t come to feminism for this. and I wonder, as anthony says, what bee person would do if she actually had to engage in BA’s critique.
Ba is critiquing now but first she had to take a moment out pray and make sure her strings are attached solidly!!!!
We have a new slogan. My friend Brian Dauth wrote to say, “I keep wondering: “What Would Queer Dewd Do?”
I’m making a slogan for a cafepress mug or some crap! I wish I were a better cartoonist. I could come up with a great queer dewd image, too. Queer Dewd, stroking chin, thinking.
*queer dewd tugs BAs strings*
*queer dewd assesses skills at manipulating BA*
*queer dewd thinks BA’s ready to kick some ass*
BfP –
I’m not a big one for trying to discern motivations. I leave it at face value as to what someone tells me. Since I’m only one person, I can’t surf every radfem blog, so I’ve generally stuck to what’s published. I figure that, all movements and theories are conversations between adherents and of course are never settled, but you have to start somewhere to understand.
For those who do focus heavily on porn, rape, sex work, the issue is about male bonding. It’s class men subjugating class women.
Classes are united in their self interest *as* a class and that dedication to interest as a class has to be maintained. It’s maintained, say radfems, by male bonding rituals: those primarily occur around the subjugation of women in porn, sex work, and rape. It is primarily thru porn and sex work that men are told: you are men *because* you subjugate women. Women are women because they are subjugated.
For the radfem, everything truly flows from there. If you knowck those two things down, then you’ve effectively kicked Patriarchy in the nuts and smashed it on the head with a lead pipe. On it’s knees, you can keep kicking it ’til its dead.
They truly believe this, and believe it perhaps even more so since they do experience rape and battering and other violence in their own lives.
To them, there is no contradiction: to fight rape, porn, and sex work IS to fight economic inequality.
And to answer Ravenmn — yeah. There’s no way I’ll ever see eye to eye with a radfem — nor they me.
but. uh. i’m all of a sudden experiencing waves of nausea. to be cont’d.
It’s maintained, say radfems, by male bonding rituals: those primarily occur around the subjugation of women in porn, sex work, and rape. It is primarily thru porn and sex work that men are told: you are men *because* you subjugate women. Women are women because they are subjugated.
I just don’t get it.
And I guess since I swore I’d never again talk about or even think about talking about radfem’s, I’m not going to *try* to get it. Suffice it to say, it’s interesting how there’s bees and wasps and all that (as maintained by one of their own), and yet I was chastized for thinking there were factions??? And you were chastized for not knowing??
anyway. BfP’s selfimposed silence on radfem’s is officially enacted.
suffice it to say, if ya’ll are wasps–me and ba and donna must all be mosqitos or something…
BfP we were called minor wasps ill deserving of names
and i dont know bout you but if I’m an insect
Tse fly for me!
Do you never participate in their blog otherwise?
to answer your question, QD - maybe.
I had not noticed until someone pointed it out. but there might be something to it.
for a while, back when I first started blogging, I did a lot of inappropriate over-posting in places I had no business being.
then I stopped that nonsense, you know, trying to be respectful and learn by lurking.
sometimes the only thing I have in common with another blogger is the fact that we’ve both developed similar opinions on some aspects of radfem thought.
Yeah, it’s caused me to examine my commenting behavior.
but not my opinions on porn.
AP –
That’s fair. It’s one reason why I didn’t comment at Laura’s blog or anyone’s really who is a radfem and is expressing critique of them — from within. I was way too warped by Alison Jaggar and Richard Bernstein, both of whom argue that our goal in criticism should be helping our opponents strengthen their arguments (and they us). I mean, for me, and I think you and I are different on this one, I’ve never identified with radfem politically (spiritually, perhaps). As theorists, they are mostly intellectual opponents. (Activists: different story). And I’m probably weird b/c I don’t see “opponent” as a bad thing.
Anyway, I’m going to go back to feeling woozy.
I’m sad not being a member of the flying insect family. Guess I better kick up the sex factor a bit.
Plus I want a kick-ass nickname too.
Kactus:
“The Mantis”? How about “The Scorpion?” hummmm…goes well the the kactus theme….oh, wait, those are kinda cool nicknames, sorry….
Oh, c’mon. How hard is that, really?
Kocktusch?
Kraptass?
Cracked asp?
{{{{kactus}}}}
I think I just channeled my 7th grade self.
Raven, I vote for Cracked Asp….
besides, everyone who isn’t a wasp is a bee, right?
bees are women or proto-feminists. so everyone who wasn’t named a wasp is a bee. bzzzzzzzzzzz.
btw, i mentioned elsewhere that R just couldn’t get over the claim that bumblebees are fluffy.
“They are NOT fluffy,” he kept mumbling the entire evening.
Tonight, starshine and her gf were here for a visit. (Starshine is sonshine’s ex-gf, but I collect children like avon ruby glassware, so they are all “other daughters” and “other sons” — coz in the old ‘hood they’d sometimes call me their “other mother.”
So, we’re all talking and R says, “Let me ask you an off-the-wall question. Do you think Bumble Bees are fluffy?”
LOL
As I said way the hell back when, I do have an agenda: to talk to people. All kinds of people. People who are interesting and capable of actually engaging, pretty much wherever they’re coming from (although admittedly i haven’t been going as far afield as i might–my blogroll represents a wide range, but it’s pretty much on the left side of the spectrum, or at least somewhere in the moderate range. one of these days i expect i’ll branch out to more right-wing folks. right now i’ve got way too much to read as it is).
i will admit that it does give me a certain sense of satisfaction when people turn away from assholish people like girlfriend there and toward me and/or other people that i think are far more worthy of pretty much anyone’s time. As for the notion that it’s all about pr0n or any other particular issue, however, for me at least, well; rather than try to defend or explain for the umpteenth time, i will simply dedicate the following to Miz Thund’rous Brow, with all my heart:
http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php
BD, that was beautiful…
anyway i think what’s currently being hashed out here is: yah, there are some fundamental differences between theoretical radfem and theoretical…um, other theories. thing is, i think a lot of people are still basically just figuring it all out; the main unifying theme is pretty much “we’re mad as hell and we’re not gonna take it anymore.”
but you know: yeah, i think there are some people with whom i’m never gonna see eye to eye about certain things. the difference between them and people like Stormy Weather is, they’re not Compleat Ideologues. they put actual real live people first. which, that: i can only judge that by their behavior online. people may well be tireless activists and mensches offline, but my concern at least wrt online community/dialogue is, can you -ever- turn it off? just be human for five minutes? if yes, cool; we might have something to talk about. if i like other stuff you have to say, i probably -will- try to talk to you, at least a couple of times.
the people that i end up writing off in disgust aren’t the ones i most disagree with; they’re the ones who repeatedly act like ZealotBots ™. doesn’t have to involve foaming or “extremism,” either. just go into “blahblahblahGINGER” mode and can’t or won’t ever seem to come out of it.
I’m sorry to see A Stormy Blog disappear. I’m not familiar with this fall-out — I was reading some blogs that are new to me today, trying to piece together what had happened…
In general, I liked Stormy’s posts and thought she had made some interesting and valuable contributions to the online community.
Queer Dewd, I thought you said something very sensible on a thread I read at Renegade Evolution, which was basically saying that we needed to figure out how to handle conflict. That in itself would make a great post, if you had more thoughts on this.
(I’m lost on the name-change, btw, but I suppose that’s off-topic. :) )
(Sorry, I just noticed the “Wondering why Queer Dewd” in your lefthand side-bar. Thanks! :))
Hey Sour Duck — wow! I didn’t know you read the blog. I’m flattered.
I don’t know what happened to Stormy. I thouhgt maybe she locked the post? I am not familiar with the blog. I do hope she brings it back to the public, because one of the reasons I don’t go and jump into internecine warfare is because I’m not interested in seeing criticism destroy anything. I think it can strengthen their arguments and their political practice. And all the better all the way around, I should think.
You know what I’d like to do, is ask Jo Freeman to sit for an interview on the topic. One of the reasons I said what I said at RenEv’s is that I’d just posted about her and how she thought of these wars.
Oh, and maybe Alice Echols.
Right. Like that will happen. I think we’re going to be moving so life is going to be hellish for the next 6 months.
well, and if and when she does any such thing in a way that I am aware of, (”I am sorry for being such a jerk”), then i’m all open ears and heart. until such time, i happily indulge my schadenfreude. again, this does not mean that i am cutting off or castigating people who do continue to engage her, read at her private blog, and so on. it just means i cop to my inner nasty and take her for a nice walk in the park every so often, so’s she doesn’t crap all over the house and make a hideous mess.
“better out than in.”
it also doesn’t mean that i wouldn’t necessarily agree that any of her posts were, as sour duck says, valuable contributions. a few that i glanced at in the archives did indeed look worthy.
but if she wants to, as my friend fastlad puts it, “play wendy-house,” y’know what, i’m not the one to try to talk her out of it. there just aren’t enough hours in the day.
So, we’re all talking and R says, “Let me ask you an off-the-wall question. Do you think Bumble Bees are fluffy?”
They are fluffy though!
Bumble bee
Honey Bee
Honey bees are hte ugly wasp like ones, bumble bees are adorable and easy to love for the way they act as carriers for the spermies of flowers - thereby ensuring the continuation of flower kind and the rest of the natural ecology.
Rmildred –
I think they are too. R just thinks fluffy isn’t the right word. Starshine and her gf didn’t think they were fluffy either.
He just, in typical fashion, obsesses about stuff like that. I’ll be ranting about this or that — which happens to be what animates me. He’ll sit there, “but they aren’t fluffy” the whole time. I exagerrate, but this happens often enough that it is funny enough to tease each other over it.
i’m just not clear on why a “we’re not gonna take it anymore” feminist wants to be associated with “fluffy,” especially. whatev’; besides everything else, the whole thing was a bit House at Pooh Corner for my tastes. combined with the truculent attitude it was kind of doing my head in, tell the truth.
I did snort at it btw, i just disagree.
But the Jeffy-poos of hte right wing churn out something that makes me do the same thing every so often, you come away from them thinking “Well I could start cutting it to pieces by focusing on the basic innacuracies involved in it, I could start with the fact that the metaphor leads to conclusions which are, if nothing else, deeply ironic, or maybe with how it’s written so atrociously.
But wait a second; bumble bees are fluffy? The hell?!”
Like they’ll have some assertion that is just so fucking whack, which is introduced so casually (I’ve read way to much far right propaganda for giggles and shit, the better anti-semitic literature is full of stuff like that, Teh Jew apprently has tons of magical powers, they’re like big nosed faeries or something) that you don’t need to focus on any of the really terrible crap because there’s this little gem of craziness sparkling away, oh so distractingly…
AP –
in 23 again, to finish what ‘d wanted to say before I got woozy the other night, I stayed away from fights like that because I am always afraid that, without some previous relationship, then dropping my commentary into the mix is like dropping a bomb. bad juju for the person under attack. but i’ve never seen you as not trying your utmost to be part of the radfem community, so i didn’t get how you were abusing the situation.
R. Mildred in #44 — Bingo!
on the more positive side, maybe somewhere beyond the realm of “schadenfreude,” -this- is what makes me happy and optimistic again, okay:
this post:
http://feministnation.blogspot.com/2007/01/and-shit-just-keeps-hitting -fan.html
and this post:
http://angertoactivism.blogspot.com/2007/01/i-am-not-bumble-bee.html
and this post:
http://resisterance.blogspot.com/
(can’t link directly, “Bees and Hives.” although the top one is worth reading as well, i think)
and this post:
http://shoutylucy.wordpress.co.....n-it-goes/
especially this bit:
>The real dividing line isn’t between radfem and sex-pos, or pro- and anti-porn, or even between men and women. It’s between those with empathy and those without it.>
i could’ve saved myself about 80,000,000 lines, with that, really.
one of these days i might even get around to moving on to seriously tackling the right wing blogosphere, armed with what i know now.
i need a major rest before that though, i think
I think the focus on empathy is interesting. I’m not sure what to make of it, except that it could only be applied tothese particular situations.
Where I have seen things work out really well is in male dominated spaces, largely, when people basically stick to what i’ve called “engaged fallibilistic pluralism”. (The things the indicate empathy in these spaces aren’t evidenced by the people who participate. No warm fuzzies, no vagina hugs, etc.)
As for the claim that someone being empathic is what counts, it remains in the eye of the beholder. Not too long ago, someone I like and who is repeatedly held up as a model of empathy, said something very vile on this blog. I shut up to spare feelings, but to this day I remain unconvinced that someone’s empathy will mean that they are capable of moving beyond acceptance of sex workers or the sexually marginalized and applying it to something else that they were not so inclined to apply it to. I see the same thing happening in another current thread and I am rather unamused.
Empathy is great, don’t get me wrong. I am not so clear that it gets you very far in an anarchic blog situation. There was something about this awhile ago, maybe a decade or so, called “The Tyranny of Empathy”.
say it’s necessary but not sufficient, then.
i’m not the somebody, btw, am I?
anyway, again, there’s no such thing as perfect empathy; there is, though, perhaps, such a thing as a near complete -lack- of it.
it also doesn’t even have to mean, hugs, cookies, whatever; it just means, “being able to see from someone else’s POV,” ever, at all.
not solipsistic, IOW, okay.
So is jackgoff a flower? or is he a wasp?
Or random thug? Or College Repug hiding in socialist clothing? All of the above? Yeah, probably.