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klew One thing has changed Maya Angelou
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For what it’s worth, I don’t like Bitch Lab, I don’t read her, I don’t think she’s very bright, and I think the main thing she piggybacked on recently was a comment thread to a post she didn’t author. Nice appropriation, that.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
So: Don’t like Bitch Lab? Join the club, and don’t read her. Read the women she rips off instead. They’re better.
07-23-2006
Just go ahead and bitch
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[...] Over on bitchlab’s blog, there’s a conversation about a conversation that started over here. [...]
[...] Yesterday, piny wrote a response to this thread at Bitch | Lab (which in return was a response to comments on nubian’s interview at Feministing). In it, he quoted some of blogger Alon Levy’s comments at Bitch | Lab: No, I’m making them be activists. When I explain to people that American-style health care is a calamity or that racism and sexism are still alive, I take full responsibility to making them understand. Some people are just dense, of course, but overall, if after I talk to them they still think that racism and sexism died in 1968 or that single-payer health care is bad, it’s my fault for not being clear enough. [...]
[...] It does goes on and on (even Bitch | Lab gets her licks in..and she elaborates further in her own blog here)..but you get the general picture. [...]
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B|L, I’ve been seriously considering quitting actively blogging and that thread over there was kind of the decider for me. I had to walk away from it because it just was all the nastiness of the last few weeks tied up in a horrible little strangling bow.
I don’t think women are good to each other. I don’t know how revisionists can construct this history where women were once these goddess worshippers who got along with this great communal spirit and supported each other; I see almost none of that in bloglandia. I’m sick of trying to keep people I have an emotional investment in from being torn apart, I’m sick of jumping into the fray only to be sidelined by some wonderfully ironic, detailed insult that I have to consult a dictionary to decipher. I know I’m being insulted, but I guess I’m too stupid to know how.
I don’t like much of anybody right now. And I really don’t like women. I always thought I only hated/feared white men–I guess it goes to my gender, too.
Hi Bitch|Lab and kactus. =) I love your blogs.
kactus, EO is a troll and I just emailed Celina to ban him along with two other well-known trolls on there, noname and xyz who also posted on that thread. They haven’t posted so maybe they were banned. I think people are holding up well on there and hope everyone continues blogging.
That thread…oh, that thread. I haven’t commented, mostly because I’m not registered, and now I can’t seem to get back in, but I really don’t know what I’d have to say, other than fuck, did those posters deliberately set out to prove nubian’s points, or what?
And, oh god, that accusation about Blackamazon being nubian’s sockpuppet just took the freaking cake.
Ah, yes….the feminist wing of the KKK strikes again.
I’m surprised that nubian isn’t throwing her computer out the window right about now.
I’ve just about reached my “Fuck them all” level…and this is NO joke.
Anthony
But unlike kactus, such nastiness won’t stop me from blogging..if anything, it pisses me off to the point that I will blog that much more to counter these pseudo-feminist racist asshats. Between them and the antiporn “feminists”, I should have enough material to fuel the SmackChron for about a year.
In the meantime, all love to nubian, and Blackamazon, who could use some backup right about now.
Anthony
Aww kactus I’d miss ya but first and foremost handle you homey.See in many ways i think its proved women can be good to each other allies can be . Weve stepped in many ways and stood our groud and showed love.
I do understand not ever blogging again cause damn these women suck suck suck.
ON the flipside I’m not sure I like the handling of it ALon msjane noname and all otherrs didnt get called out and made to answer for their bullshit . ITs not just a let everyone else talk thing I was insulted not a whiteperson(hi) me and nubian were used interchangibly cause all brown folk (not even black) look alike even when ya cant see us. ANd they’re allowed to pity party each other while disrespecting us and the site itself okay whatever.
Plus nubians interview becomes about abortion and wages da holy blue blazing what the fuck.
also can i join the listserve and why don’t i have nifty arrow box I’m jealous
This may help explain a bit of my ire with certain feminist from a thread awhile back, eh?
though I have to say, that joker that rabbited on about how women never discussed the ways women end up choosing lower paying work was sure proved wrong. Not that XYZ will READ what was posted to Feministing and see that, wow!, the high-profile feminist, Katha Pollit and other feminists, are wringing their hands over why it is that white women choose those occuaptions: eg., why, as one BL reader Nurse Gracie says, her classmates in nursing at Yale do not plan on going into high paying nursing positions with their MAs. The end up taking 35K/year jobs.
Why? Because their fucking husbands are making $500k. doh! Because they come from well-to-do families. Because they can AFFORD to, or so they think. Yes, this is silly, since husband making $500k may not be around.
But of course, how about the problem with very existence of such huge wage disparities in the first damn place and what that does to this economy?!
aaaaaaaahhh neeeeeeeeeevermind.
and hey, glad to see you here Bella. Bella is from the old Bad Subjects list, so lurking Baddies might figure it out. AND, Bella is responsible for such classic subject lines as:
“Tearing Richard Singer a New Asshole On The Subject of How They Make Scat Porn”;
“Why The Hell Would They Use Fake Poop, You Moron?”
“I Am Into S/M, Richard & I Am Too a Feminist, So Fuck You Up Your Prissy Ass,”
We had some great convos at the list, I’m telling ya. Richard Singer was also the one who rabbited on about how real women preferred their man to say “I’m going to push my penis into your lovely vagina now, is that OK my pet.” Then, one day, he went on and on about his desire for Mujeres Libres in Spain with the big guns and red kerchiefs and how sexy they were and how surprised he was at himself that he like women with gunz. HA.
Blackamazon. Your blog rocks. You are brilliant.
The same stuff is happening on that thread as happens everywhere with us. Maybe it’s a turning point as heart said the other day. But I know there’s alot more love and support for woc than I’ve ever seen in feminism because of the RWOC. I am very shy and mostly observe and comment but hope everyone continues blogging.
BL you spoil me KIsses . I’m strangely happy todya i have ono idea why but ill take it
I had screwed up because, when I set that tool up, i had it Black Amazon with a space. so, when I put the words together as you use them, ta da. But I set that up way back and was lazy!
BA — it’s just this little tool. I set it up and type in everyone’s name or blog and then link to their blog. so, every time someone, me or a commenter, types your name or blog name, it automatically links.
I think that’s what made BfP want to get a wordpress. blog!
One thing about the thread, and I mentioned it over there–well, not about the thread so much but when nubian asked to have the interview removed, I popped up and said No, don’t let your words be stolen. I think that’s key, that we can’t just pack up our stuff that makes people mad and keep it to ourselves, it has to be out there so that it can do its work.
Kind of like a burr under a horse’s saddle; I really, really appreciate nubian’s desire to erase the interview because of this hope that it would erase all the nastiness that followed, except that it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t take it out of people’s minds, cuz it’s already out there. And let it stand as an object lesson.
I’m just thinking that if that had been me, being interviewed about welfare, and people had come with their usual welfare-bashing nonsense, I would have been privately crying in my soup! And instead of getting righteously mad I would have kept on trying to patiently persuade people that they’re wrong even though I know it’s not gonna change anything. So nubian is mucho tougher than I am there cuz I’m just a roll-over-and-let-them-kick-me type of person. And this blogging business fucks with my feelings too much.
That thread…that thread was classic. It was pavlovian in its predictability.
BA is completely brilliant. especially for a sockpuppet/tool of the Patriarchy :P
anyway I’ve just been skimming that whole thread so far, but was sort of heartened to see nubian write that today she feels less angry and is just seeing some people as sort of funny.
it’s a good place to get to with this shit, if you/one can.
at the end of the day–and god knows i’m saying this to myself as much as to anyone–it’s just a handful of assholes on the other end of a bunch of cable wires.
there are a lot of good people on the other end of the cable wires, too.
as someone was writing somewhere,
nolite bastardes carborundurum (don’t let the bastards grind you down, supposedly)
Belle, I think I’m in love with you! I actually looked up the Latin translation of “Don’t let the bastards get you down” once and knew exactly what that said.
Great point about the number of good folks out in the blogosphere and the world in general. The sad fact is, the good folks are often the ones less likely to speak up. I know I’m especially hesitant to raise my voice in a WOC setting because my expreience as a black woman is none. But I do enjoy reading them. I’m glad they’re out there. They open my eyes. I hope they will continue to do so.
Also, if nobody’s ever read her, may I recommend
{Nappy as I want to be}? I really enjoy reading her. She gives me a perspective I don’t think I’d get anywhere else, despite the fact that “some of my best friends are black.”
ON the flipside I’m not sure I like the handling of it ALon msjane noname and all otherrs didnt get called out and made to answer for their bullshit .
Honestly, it kind of pisses me off too. If you just talk in general about how I annoy you, I just move on or respond with a mediocre piece of snark. But if you accuse me of racism, I can respond so much more effectively.
if anything, it pisses me off to the point that I will blog that much more to counter these pseudo-feminist racist asshats. Between them and the antiporn “feministsâ€Â, I should have enough material to fuel the SmackChron for about a year.
You know, people who say that everyone who disagrees with them is necessarily a racist, and who steadfastly maintain that it’s oppressive to ask them to explain anything, remind me of the anti-porn crowd a lot more than the people who call bullshit on that.
And, of course, the implied race-trumps-gender comment in the interview was especially reminiscent of the aforementioned crowd’s totalizing crap. Trust me, if it were just “there’s racism in the feminist movement,” I’d file it in my “uh, isn’t it obvious?” cabinet.
Alon
A long time ago, I went door to door collecting signatures for a full page spread we were doing for a reproductive rights campaign.
My neighbor refused to sign up. I thought, but she’s a black women. Black women know all about the need for abortion. What!?
Even though I knew her well enough to ask why, I didn’t. Instead, I headed to the library, since this was pre-Internet. And I read up on the topic. I thought I knew plenty about black feminist thought then. of course I didn’t.
That’s what people are asking of you: to do your homework.
On Belledame’s blog, you cite this and that reference on a regular basis. You take the time out to do your homework.
And yet, you expect people to tell you about their experience. It’s not their job.
Think Hegel’s master slave dialectic. The master never has to learn about the world of the slave. Just goes about her business, expecting the slave to translate the world for him on demand. Meanwhile, the slave always has to study the world of themaster and know it really well, and then she goes to her own space and knows her world.
By asking, you’re continuing the master-slave situation, making others be your servants.
Not only is the response to anthony ad hominem, an attempt to suggest he’s a hypocrite, it doesn’t even make sense.
——–
I think the important thing to remember is racism is a social issue, not an individual one. it comes from our isolated little bubbles, of not having to think about anything, so taking it personally isn’t worthwhile.
Plus, if you really do think, “Isn’t it obvious?” then why bother to call nubian’s comments into question re: the WS list?
It happened. It happens weekly. It happens all the time, something you’re claiming to recognize.
And yet, you decided it was more important to question what nubian said about the WS list.
If you recognize it’s obvious, it’s recognition that needs to be applied consistently, not just when it’s convenient for you.
Those are the words of someone who is so hellbent on analyzing everything as racist that she doesn’t stop and think that there may be other things going on.
Nor is this,
Maybe I’m biased. She admits that she might not be saying things as clearly.
And this is simply saying what the philosopher Richard Bernstin described as the kind of pluralism we don’t want to celebrate, discussion in the thread entitled “Gonna learn a new language…“): “There is flabby pluralism where our borrowings from different orientations are little more than glib superficial poaching.” It’s a form of flabby pluralism where people just poach, they don’t engage. I think it’s a legitimate complaint. And yet, they can learn and read. I did and I keep on reading and listening. It’s good for people.
Nowhere in any of that did nubian argue that race trumps gender. She has, in fact, been on one of the major blogs, Alas, arguing that she espouses a race/class/gender analysis. And she does so on her blog. She can hardly espouse a race trumps gender argue practically by virtue of who she is: lesbian black woman. How can you possibly imagine that the only thing that counts for her is her race? Particularly as a black lesbian? It makes no sense!
This interview was about her experiences of bigotry and racializing commentary on her words and ideas. What you think you see is simply an artefact of the interview itself because it was about race.
Asserting that you glean it from words that you cannot find in her statements won’t cut it.
So, rule here is: if you want to criticize someone then go for it. But you need an argument. All you’ve provided are ad hominem responses to anthony and a couple of empty claims, neither of which can be supported by evidence.
If you don’t want to follow those basic rules of respect for the people with whom you’re arguing, since I think this is more suited to what you seem to espouse: the attitude of a scientist. A scientist listens to others, listens to the data, testing hyptheses agaisnt empirical evidence. That’s an ideal we can aspire to in conversation, as well.
By asking, you’re continuing the master-slave situation, making others be your servants.
No, I’m making them be activists. When I explain to people that American-style health care is a calamity or that racism and sexism are still alive, I take full responsibility to making them understand. Some people are just dense, of course, but overall, if after I talk to them they still think that racism and sexism died in 1968 or that single-payer health care is bad, it’s my fault for not being clear enough.
And somehow, despite this being a fairly slavish thing (but then again, the activist-citizen relationship has its parallels with slave-master), I do it without snapping at people, “You capitalist tool! I’m not doing your homework for you, and you’re an idiot for thinking private insurance is a good way to run health care!”
On Belledame’s blog, you cite this and that reference on a regular basis. You take the time out to do your homework.
I cite the references I am familiar with. I know about Against Our Will because it got mentioned a few times in some thread about rape on Reclusive Leftist, and I don’t really remember how I first found Avedon Carol’s anti-censorship material.
Not only is the response to anthony ad hominem, an attempt to suggest he’s a hypocrite, it doesn’t even make sense.
Anthony’s comment is itself ad hominem. He says, the people who think nubian’s wrong are like the Twisty/BB contingent. I say that on the contrary, nubian and Blackamazon display more similarity to sex-negative feminism than me and Ms. Jane. I’d call him out on his ad hominem instead of respond in kind, but the last few times I invoked that term in a discussion about race or gender, I was accused of white/male privilege.
Plus, if you really do think, “Isn’t it obvious?†then why bother to call nubian’s comments into question re: the WS list?
Because I thought there was an alternative explanation for that. When I deliberately want to call someone’s argument into question, I fisk. If I talk about one not particularly important part, it’s because I think that part is weak, can be improved, or deserves further discussion.
Nowhere in any of that did nubian argue that race trumps gender. She has, in fact, been on one of the major blogs, Alas, arguing that she espouses a race/class/gender analysis. And she does so on her blog. She can hardly espouse a race trumps gender argue practically by virtue of who she is: lesbian black woman. How can you possibly imagine that the only thing that counts for her is her race? Particularly as a black lesbian? It makes no sense!
The problem with that argument is that it’s not that different from the reflexive we-recognize-race-too shriek that characterizes gender-trumps-race people: we’re not indifferent to racism, but we need to concentrate on sexism first, and black women should stop talking about their experiences because it subjectivizes oppression, etc.
When you cut an anti-feminist black nationalist slack you don’t cut a white liberal feminist, it’s legitimate to call you on that. It’s also legitimate to call you on calling someone disgusting for saying different black bloggers report different experiences with racism.
As for why a lesbian would support a race-trumps-class view, there are some explanations, but I’d rather not psychologize people. It’s a poor substitute for a decent argument and I’d rather not discuss possible reasons when we’re still arguing over whether she does in fact promote such a view.
That said, after reading about the Prairie Muffins and their manifesto, nothing shocks me anymore. And, let us remind ourselves, these women don’t seem to suffer more than one kind of cultural oppression.
If you don’t want to follow those basic rules of respect for the people with whom you’re arguing, since I think this is more suited to what you seem to espouse: the attitude of a scientist. A scientist listens to others, listens to the data, testing hyptheses agaisnt empirical evidence. That’s an ideal we can aspire to in conversation, as well.
That’s the ideal I always aspire to. Problem is, when I try to use it with people who are convinced I’m oppressing them in some way, they immediately call me an arrogant racist/sexist who thinks everything can be reduced to logic and science, and who thinks people’s subjective experiences don’t matter.
I’ll be more than glad to be empirical here, if there’s something to be empirical about. Unsupported claims about how white readers treat bloggers aren’t something I can respond to empirically unless I see empirical evidence for the claims first.
On a completely different note, I’ve noticed that you sometimes post comments one after the other instead of in one long post. Do you think it improves readability or something? I’m asking because if you do, I can split my longer comments in a similar way.
I don’t see either nubian or BA as cutting anti-fem black nationalists slack. in fact I don’t remember BA particularly addressing any such at all, at least on her blog.
nubian’s come in for at least as much shit from the race-first people as anything/anyone else.
per multiple posts: obviously I do ‘em myself. they’re considered bad netiquette, but to my mind they are at least somewhat easier to read than one looong post (sometimes also considered bad netiquette, depending on how cranky you are. i know some seriously cranky people in that regard. and i do that also, yes).
for me it’s more like oh-i-just-remembered such and so, let me post it before i forget, which is quite likely.
IB: thanks for the reminder wrt nappy as i want to be, thought i’d already had her linked.
I never said racist I said Bullshit. I don’t throw that term around and have yet to use it in concern to you.
And BL forgive me for what comes next
I came here to another blog ( yes i know you could follow) to speak with someone who I am close with about my feelings not to continue a discussion with you. You’ve entered this discussion and accused me of racism ( which I haven’t said) and then inferred with snide disrespectful “isn’t it obvious” posturing EVERY TIME someone point’s out that basically THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS SAID.
If you want us to be specific then you have to ask specific questions. No one ( yet) accused you of being oppresive , but you have been dismissive ( their not doing what I want so I’ll snark) , disingenuine( Well if I disagree with them I’m a racist SHOW ME WHERE SOMEONE SAID THAT) and passed it off as our failing.
You also let other people attack our writing,our identities and intellectual capabilities freely. If you were so interested in information you might have helped make an environment where that could happen instead you and others talked over and around and through us. so if you want to talk about activism where was it. MSjane pulled half quotes out of essyas and shes reputable even though NUBIANS BLOG WAS LINKED AND YOU COULD HAVE ASKED WHAT SHE WAS QUOTING. You let it stand. She pull quoted form my site and you didn’t ask ME ( THE AUTHOR) you let it stand. So how am I supposed to feel about that.
Finally
By asking, you’re continuing the master-slave situation, making others be your servants.
No, I’m making them be activists. When I explain to people that American-style health care is a calamity or that racism and sexism are still alive, I take full responsibility to making them understand. Some people are just dense, of course, but overall, if after I talk to them they still think that racism and sexism died in 1968 or that single-payer health care is bad, it’s my fault for not being clear enough.
And somehow, despite this being a fairly slavish thing (but then again, the activist-citizen relationship has its parallels with slave-master), I do it without snapping at people, “You capitalist tool! I’m not doing your homework for you, and you’re an idiot for thinking
GOOD FOR YOU. IT’s not my fault when someone else who ahs the opportunity and ability doesn;’t want to do the legwork. I am not an empty vessel filler or an empty vessel waiting to be filled. You have an interest go find it. Not to mention do you know ( or care) how many times someone is asked to fill taht role. I don’t remember it being asked . Did you bother to to see where it comes from , I don’t think so because in your writings not one quote or idea has been examined IN CONTEXT from ANY OF THE WRITERS youve asked to educate you.
I’m not you I’m not living your life and you can ask of me all you want but if youu truly ar einterested in change youd also consider why I might not be prone to helping you out.
Finally not knowing me or my life or my activities . How dare you imply by not catering TO YOU I am failing in my activist duties. And what you would and would not rather discuss is of no substance or material to how we will continue. YOU HAVENT PROVED YOUR POINT and because you havent you want it to drop. YOu come into someone elses space and speak like that and you honestly wonder why no one seems disposedto doing large amounts of legwork with time we may not have just to make you feel better about you intellectual cachet?
There’ s nothing to forgive BA. Nothing you said was out of line.
I have a long day ahead of me, so understand that I’m busy and don’t have time to respond to alon.
All I can say is, the idea that anyone can “make someone be an activist” is just such bullshit.
Be your own fucking activist alon. nubian did her part to provide some specific illustrations, because she was asked. you can now do your part to go to the library and learn.
However, I’m afraid your antipathy to identity-based social movements, which you’ve expressed several times, is putting a stumbling block in the way of conversation.
Hence, there isn’t goig to be a conversation about nubian’s supposed “mistakenness”.
Nubain doesn’t buy into race/trumps gender and its ludicrous that you make the charge, given that she’s under attack from the race trumps gender crowd.
nubian doesn’t cut a black nationalist slack, she cuts a politie person slack and disagrees with him, heatedly.
You see? There’s nothing to argue about. You came into that conversation and here full of righteous, arrogant assumptions and you’re wrong.
So, basically, you know. I was going to be politie. I’m not going to be anymore.
Fuck off.
Nice try, Alon, but still no cigar.
Placing me in the “anyone who disagrees with me is an anti-White racist” crowd just isn’t going to cover up the fact that the attack of nubian by Ms.jane, xyz, and the others over at Feministing was indeed racist. Let’s reset this situation, shall we??
So now Blackamazon isn’t merely a invention; she’s worse: a stupid, bad, sloppy writer and a nutcase who uses her race to smack back at Whites.
As if only Black female writers make typo errors or use unconventional punctuation. (Remember e. e. cummings???)
Now, on to your second issue. Here’s what I originally wrote:
The point of all this was that nubian, Brownfeminpower and Blackamazon were effectively forced off the Internet due to all the assaults on them for challenging the elitism of White feminism. (Though BfP did decide to return later.)
And here’s your response:
Now can you please tell me where I actually compared EO’s, Ms.jane’s, and your comments to the likes of Twisty, BB, and RM??? My point was that their (and your) comments were and are elitist, denigrating, insulting, AND damn near racist….a bit different from my critiques of antiporn ranters like Twisty or BeebDim or R Mildred.
But maybe I am just sick and tired of others throwing ad hominem attacks on people who attempt to speak the truth about their personal experiences…and tend to react in kind. Oh, well…’ya take ‘ya chances.
Me thinks that Ms B has got you pinned right on: you just can’t stand it that Black women dare to bite the liberal hand that’s supposedly feeds them; so you attack their “racism” and their “literacy style” to compensate. Well, too bad for you, because the days where elitist feminism (or other forms of White liberal elitism) can proclaim themselves as the groupthinkers for all women or people of color are just plain over. You’ll just have to get used to us, Alan.
Now, if you don’t mind, I have to prepare for work. Don’t let the doorknob hit ‘ya on the way out..and remember to turn out the lights.
Anthony
Wow, I just saw all this. Un-fucking-believable. (Why this still surprises me after all this crap I’ve seen on the blogosphere, I do not know.)
I truly think some of these people aren’t worth engaging.
HEy I’m stil blogging ! and he calle dme sex negative I missed that one
Oo. Now I’m wondering if EO is the same as frdbopp, the one who was intimating that BL and I write in the same style and are the same person, or at least are “mind-melded.”
troll with sock puppets accuses other people of making sock puppets, perhaps?
Okay, sorry if this gets me flamed, but I have to ask an honest question here… I am inclined to agree with (or at least echo) Alon… why is it a bad thing to ask people for explanations? I understand the need to do one’s homework, but what if one doesn’t know where to begin, and honestly wants to learn and be more enlightened? I also would tend to agree that calling anyone who disagrees w/ you a racist is more than a little disingenuous. I know that no two oppressions are the same, but to my ears it does sound a whole lot like the radfem “with us or against us” / “you’re not a feminist” rhetoric.
I have a feeling I might get flamed now. But I don’t think that would be fair. Because I am honestly curious about this stuff.
amber:
http://blog.pulpculture.org/2006/07/22/language-agreement/
I think that explains it all. and it doesn’t do so in a language of race or anything else.
Basically, I see it as a lot like demanding a right to be an MRA and constantly insist that you explain why you think something is sexist.
In this case, he’s demanding the right to know nothing about black frminist thought and demand they explain it to him. That’s not the same thing as asking mere questions. No one actually called him a racist. He read it that way. Because he doesn’t really understand why “whiteness” has to go, he thinks, I suspect, I’m talking about individuals — instead of talking about privilege and the systems of oppression that support privilege. As his comments in Feministing make clear — he reads this as an attack on him, as does MsJane — when no one has.
That makes sense. (I admit I hadn’t read that thread before now because it’s really long. But sitting here now, on the first day of the new job with not a damn thing to do, I have time!)
So anyway.. yeah. That makes sense. I have to admit thought that I think there is a very fine line between someone honestly asking for more information,and someone expecting explanations to be handed to them because they “deserve it” somehow. And I don’t know if that line is always clear (esp. over the internet). I know I hav emisinterpreted it in the past.
Alon, as I said at Feministe, I don’t understand why you assume nubian does not have a proper understanding of racism. You gave no reason for believing that, no evidence for it in the interview nubian gave nor in quotes from her blog.
—–
Now I come here and see you posting this:
>…if you accuse me of racism, I can respond so much more effectively.
>You know, people who say that everyone who disagrees with them is necessarily a racist
—
Show me where somebody accused you of racism. Show me a person who claimed that disagreement with a POC = racism.
It isn’t there
>And, of course, the implied race-trumps-gender comment in the interview>
It isn’t there.
>When you cut an anti-feminist black nationalist slack you don’t cut a white liberal feminist, it’s legitimate to call you on that.>
Not what nubian did. It isn’t there.
> Problem is, when I try to use it with people who are convinced I’m oppressing them in some way, they immediately call me an arrogant racist/sexist >
Nope. Not there.
If you provide some evidence that people call you racist all the time, then it’s worth discussing. If you are unwilling to accept nubian’s opinions about what happens on her own blog, how do you expect us to believe you are called a racist all the time?
And even if that is a big problem in your life, why bring it up on nubian’s interview? It seems very out of place, to me.
Also, as I recall, Kortney put sexuality which can be subsumed under gender before race. She also merely said gender does not trump race. Whites have to actually READ her blog to learn any of this. It’s too bad most don’t bother to see reality.
[...] Over on bitchlab’s blog, there’s a conversation about a conversation that started over here. [...]
I just read the comment at Feministing, and I was rdisgusted. It makes me angry beyond all comphrehension when white feminists make the same stupid misrepresentations and the same entitled interpretations about race relations that white men make about gender. If one is good at thinking, one should be able to apply that skill widely, but alas it seems not to be the case. I work in a very male dominaed field and I am forced to confront sexism all the time, I didn’t think about issues of race as much, but reading this all unfold has certainly opened my eyes.
I can imagine that confronting ignorance on this scale, on ones own blog yet, would be more than anyone would want to deal with.
I have nothing useful to say, but I’d like to say that there is a sort of history of black writers deliberately writing in ways that the mainstream may have seen as uneducated. Like Ntozake Shange, and other folk like that. Uh…I actually have no clue why I said that, oh yea, I was going to be like Black Amazon is totally tapping into that tradition of playing with words, she’s like a leroi jones or some shit. Yea, anyway, take it as a compliment I guess.
Shannon *smile*
Now can you please tell me where I actually compared EO’s, Ms.jane’s, and your comments to the likes of Twisty, BB, and RM?
Sure, right after you tell me where I called nubian an anti-white racist and attacked her literary style.
You’ll just have to get used to us, Alan.
No, I won’t. If someone the right-wing thinktanks go under tomorrow and the left starts engaging in vigorous and uninterrupted center-shifting, your view might become mainstream around the end of the century, assuming the current categories of race don’t get abolished on the way.
Basically, I see it as a lot like demanding a right to be an MRA and constantly insist that you explain why you think something is sexist.
That’s generally not what MRAs do, at least not the ones on Trish’s blog. Generally they don’t ask for explanations; rather, they say “But what about the men?” a hundred times, or say that there’s no misogyny in the US anymore.
All I can say is, the idea that anyone can “make someone be an activist†is just such bullshit.
When you put it this way, it’s bullshit. You don’t have to be an activist in same way you have to, say, not kill people. If you don’t care about talking to people who don’t already agree with you, you can feel free to write however you like.
The word “activist” is a bit misleading, I admit. It’s the result of me trying to shoehorn one-word expressions for “person who tries to change someone’s mind” and “person whose mind is to be changed.”
However, I’m afraid your antipathy to identity-based social movements, which you’ve expressed several times, is putting a stumbling block in the way of conversation.
After a couple of countries destroyed by social movements based on ethnic identity (and I’m not even talking about Nazism or anything of that sort here), a couple more doomed to third-world status, and many ethnic communities subjected to pogroms, you can’t really blame me for that antipathy.
Well, Alon, you personally may have not done so, and I apologize for that mistake; but you did defend Ms.Jane and xyz and OH, who explicitly did. attack nubian as such. And you did attempt to call her out as a “black nationalist” who attacks White feminists out of sheer spite.
So I’m really not that far off, am I??
And my question to you remains the same, since you brought up the comparison in the first place: just how is defending nubian and Blackamazon from having their integrity as Black feminist writers attacked gratituously from White feminists in any way comparable to me attacking antiporn feminists who do the same thing to sex positive radicals??
I’m not going to waste my time even debating you about your stance against “identity” movements, since it is so blind of the realities of whose “identity” has had the greatest power. (Hint, it isn’t Black or Brown people, either.)
If you want to join the color-blind circus, Alon, the door to the GOP is that way. The rest of us will do just fine without you.
Rant all you want..but from now on, you will rant alone. My time is too limited for idle BS.
Anthony
And you did attempt to call her out as a “black nationalist†who attacks White feminists out of sheer spite.
So I’m really not that far off, am I??
Very far off, given that I never called her a black nationalist. Recall that what I said originally was “This gets dangerously close to race-trumps-gender territory,” which apparently was enough to say I’m disgusting.
If you want to join the color-blind circus, Alon, the door to the GOP is that way. The rest of us will do just fine without you.
It’s funny that for all your claim to be sensitive to American racism, you pretend that it’s just the Republican Party that engages in it. The Democratic Party takes blacks’ vote for granted and throws them bones.
I can only hope that just as the Religious Right wised up after Miers’ nomination and demanded that Bush nominate a real wingnut, so will the African-American community demand that the next Democratic President say no to welfare-busting, environmental injustice, inequality in education, and so on.
OMG, Alon….give me a freakin’ break.
You explicitly accused nubian of supporting a “race-trumps-class” view that she NEVER SUPPORTED. You brought in the “Black nationalist” card in yourself in your criticism of her…no one else did.
And as for the “Don’t forget about the Democrats” nonsense: It is the height of arrogance and hubris for you as a White person to EVER lecture any Black person about how they should vote or how they should act.
Besides, if you ever managed to get your head out of your self-important ass and actually read some of my posts, you would know that I am an registered Left Independent (and a member of the Green Party), with no love for the Democratic Party whatsoever. And what’s this about the Republicans “wising up” and nominating wingnuts, anyway??? Or the notion that the “African American community” should only act as you deem it to be???
I don’t have to be “sensitive” to American racism, fool; as a Black man, I experience it every Goddess-damn day of my life. Until you have been there, don’t assume that you can lecture me or any Black person on what racism is.
Be glad that this is Bitch | Lab’s blog and not mine, because your sorry ass would be jet-propelled out the door right about now. Please feel free to take the hint and back off.
Anthony
You brought in the “Black nationalist†card in yourself in your criticism of her…no one else did.
Actually, she referred to the person as a black nationalist. If she said something like, “A man named Paul,” I’d call him Paul in my criticism.
And as for the “Don’t forget about the Democrats†nonsense: It is the height of arrogance and hubris for you as a White person to EVER lecture any Black person about how they should vote or how they should act.
I lecture groups of people of all races about how they should act, including those in countries I’ve never lived in and probably never will. If you think that your being black gives you immunity, you need to adjust your expectations.
Besides, if you ever managed to get your head out of your self-important ass and actually read some of my posts, you would know that I am an registered Left Independent (and a member of the Green Party), with no love for the Democratic Party whatsoever.
I haven’t read your blog. Is that a problem? Because I don’t expect people to read mine.
And what’s this about the Republicans “wising up†and nominating wingnuts, anyway???
For more than 25 years, the Religious Right voted and canvassed Republican in every election and got bones in return. After the nomination of Miers, its key players realized that and mounted an effective campaign for Bush to withdraw her nomination and nominate instead someone more friendly to their ideals.
But I don’t know, maybe it’s arrogant for an atheist like me to tell religious nuts they’re being hoodwinked (back when Bush nominated Roberts, then Miers, I wrote that he was taking religious conservatives for granted).
I don’t have to be “sensitive†to American racism, fool; as a Black man, I experience it every Goddess-damn day of my life.
So does Alan Keyes, and apparently he’s against any measure that will reduce the amount of racism in the US. Is it that much of a stretch to think that the major black political leaders are excessively timid and won’t pull the Democratic Party to the left?
hoo boy.
>But I don’t know, maybe it’s arrogant for an atheist like me to tell religious nuts they’re being hoodwinked
Actually: yes.
More to the point: does that ever work?
’cause in my experience pretty much no one likes being “lectured.”
…much less people who have direct experience of the thing they’re being lectured about; and the lecturer not only doesn’t, but hasn’t taken the time to find out enough about the lecturee to know this or anything else about hir.
Alon, I highly recommend this link which was posted at nubian’s interview:
How to Suppress Discussions of Racism
Especially concentrate on this:
4. Deflect attention away from the specific criticism.
Remember, your goal is to avoid having to focus on what your opponent has actually said. …
Because individuals are innocent until proven guilty, your opponent needs to prove that the writer/director/artist consciously and intentionally insulted people of color. Showing a long-term pattern of racial discrimination in literature/film/TV/comics/society/culture/law doesn’t prove that this instance is doing any harm.
Consider your ignorance coddled.
Raven remember i posted that and n o one actually READ what I ,kactus, or nubian had to say .especially on their way to creating their utopian society. Mind you he admits to not reading the blogs or engaging in any inquiry that isnt GIVEN to him so at this point
Alon,
I can blame you for bringing your criticisms of those movements to this and other blogs spaces and using them to interpret and second guess other’s words. Thus, you’ve put yourself in a very unscientific position of make a lot of unwarranted assumptions.
You came here, snatched some quotes from this post, and then sent them to Feministing. I’m not sure exactly why you did it, but MsJane’s response was pretty wild.
You appear to have not liked the “whiteness needs to die” comment. I have no clue why you plucked the other comment, since it seemed quite harmless.
We live in a racist society and we are all racists. When you recognize that whiteness isn’t something internal to you, but socially constituted, that it must die means only that the system of white privilege must go.
I am really busy and haven’t had time to read alon’s post.
I’m not interested in hosting a blog that’s a free carrier. If people can’t hold respectful conversations in which they take the attitude describe in the previous post on engaged fallibilistic pluralism, then I have no trouble banning them.
I’m not an equality person. We’re talking equity which doesn’t mean equal treatment for everyone.
I’d like to talk more about Amber’s question, which I think was a good one.
And I want an end to attacks on nubian, Blackamazon, and anyone else until you’ve actually read their work. E.g., when people suggest that nubian engages in an overly racializing analysis, this isn’t taking her words seriously. She admitted twice that she second guesses herself, that even the racialization she experiences in the blogosphere can be chalked up to simply the way blogging ‘works’.
That kind of “engagement” with nubian’s words is not real engagement. And it’s not going to happen here, particularly in a climate where you admitted, Alon, that you are opposed to identity based movements are apparently have a less than nuanced analysis. You don’t have to play the Nazi card, you just play the spoiling the wells of discourse card by suggesting that you can associate women of color politics (which are VARIED) with death and destruction.
Please, spare me. This isn’t respectful. It’s logical fallacy and the first sign that you have no interest in real debate.
[...] Yesterday, piny wrote a response to this thread at Bitch | Lab (which in return was a response to comments on nubian’s interview at Feministing). In it, he quoted some of blogger Alon Levy’s comments at Bitch | Lab: No, I’m making them be activists. When I explain to people that American-style health care is a calamity or that racism and sexism are still alive, I take full responsibility to making them understand. Some people are just dense, of course, but overall, if after I talk to them they still think that racism and sexism died in 1968 or that single-payer health care is bad, it’s my fault for not being clear enough. [...]
One more question…
Why not?
Am I too idealistic/naive because I actually do see equal treatment for everyone as a laudable goal? (Provided that everyone is respectful and tolerant of others’ opinions?)
Or, do you mean this more in the “all opinions are not created equal” sense? If that’s the case, I agree w/ that. (E.g., the baseless opinion “global warming is fake!!” isn’t equal to the mountains of scientific evidence showing otherwise.)
Also - because it seems along the same lines - I’d like to paste in an excerpt from an email I received from a friend last night. I wonder how y’all would respond to this. To me it seems pretty straightforward (ie,I agree w/ my friend’s assessment) but it kind of chaps my ass to think that some might automatically jump to the conclusion of racism. Or, to be more clear, that that assessment would be given equal (or even more than equal) consideration, when it is clearly not what was going on here. (Note: I removed all the references to what state she lives in, since she’s concerned about anonymity bc of the nature of her job.)
Anyway.
Sorry if I was unclear in any of my wording above. I’m not nearly as well-versed in the language of these issues as I am wrt feminist issues (including race/class analysis in a feminist context). I’ve tried to express myself as clearly as possible, but I may not have succeeded.
Amber:
In that situation, the moderator was absolutely correct in cutting him off and the charge of racism was simply bogus, because the speaker, however Black he was, violated a basic rule of forum etiquette in running on ceaselessly, then playing the “oppressed race” card in protest. That’s not racist, that’s proper response to an asshat who can’t follow the rules of the forum.
Actually, that kind of behavior is a lot closer to what Alon is doing than anything nubian or BA has ever done…..unfortunately, attention whoring is far too common these days with speakers with hidden agendas.
That mod should have no guilt of being racist whatsoever for doing his job correctly.
Anthony
this is a most excellent response to Alon (from Bryan McKay)
http://bryanmckay.com/blog/archives/91/
“Also, as I recall, Kortney…”
Man, i hate doing this (as in, i’d ask her to speak here, but i know that’s probably too much to ask right now). But my understanding of her work has been to explicitly reject before, above, primary, whatever labels for oppressions. her “Oppression Olympics” post talks about the uselessness of trying to figure out which flavor of discrimination is worse when she experiences so many of these intersections all at once.
However, the Gender First crowd reads her as being Race First, who then think the opposite. It’s freaking lovely, i mean a train wreck. i hope she keeps at it…but i hope she turns comments off or something.
Sorry for totally canned response, but i am busy busy and I always like archiving my old shit. heh.
This is from a discussion we held long ago on a debate list for Heavy Users of Marx and other Weirdos.
http://blog.pulpculture.org/20.....late-cake/
And I concur about the racism thing.
Sort of as I wrote in a several places. probably too abstract, though.
there’s always a fine line to walk, but I think the biggest problem we have is getting across an understanding of racism as structural. So we can be going about our business and all seems normal. The more we look at that, the easy it might be to stop feeling that, if we are told we’ve done something racist or see someone else told that, we don’t get defensive.
I mean, if we say we live in a racist and sexist society, why be that surprised when we do it.
I do not beat myself up over the fact that, try as I might, my kid harbors homophic sentiments. Why beat myself up over the fact that, in spite of growing up in what we were told was ‘the ghetto” where we were like one of the few white families, that my son (and I) can say racist things. Or sexist.
I’m not saying hte person you describe was. I’m just saying that I think people take the issue far too personally and part of that is the huge battle we face in trying to understand how racism works.
It’s hard for Americans, who think mostly in terms of individual level phenom, to think about how social systems oeprate. And it’s hard to expalin sometimes, too.
Anyhoo, back to grindstone for me.
Black Amazon wrote:
Raven remember i posted that and n o one actually READ what I, kactus, or nubian had to say
You’re absolutely right. Plus, I should have mentioned you when I quoted you. And thanks for the link, BA, it was great!
One thing I’ve noticed. The “lecturing activist” theory conveniently means the activist doesn’t have to listen to anyone but hirself. Sound familiar?
ANd now, Anthony, I have to call you on your assumptions, since my friend (the moderator) is female. ;) All in good fun ya know.
BL - thanks for the responses. I’m about to go check ‘em out in greater detail…
Okay, B | L, if you don’t want me to be here, I’m not gonna fight you. I just want to say one thing, which is tangentially related to the issue.
Part of the activist formulation is that the activist has to answer the citizen’s questions, which of course means listening to his concerns and being able to accommodate them and, in extreme cases (”Income taxes are immoral”), say why he won’t.
Ahhhh…sorry ’bout that, Amber. My eyes are kinda failing me this morning. :-P
heh
Anthony
Not a prob raven I just felt why shouldd you exert yourself when dman it he already said he aint read shit or listened to it. You could be doing something mor e worth your time
And no Alon your premise is false the activist is niether eleceted,selected or answerable to the people. His methods may involve them he may align wit h them but he HAS to do nothing. HE is not paid,his service, is not always supported or
in much more sucinct terms
” I aint got do shit but three things ,stay black,pay taxes and die, Michael JAckson got around the first , Enron got around the second , and supposedly Tupac and Elvis done messed with the third. WHat makes you think I owe you a gotdang thing?”
As Sly Civilian says. I specifically remember nubian dealing with–and politely smacking down–(implicit or explicit, don’t remember) demands from some of the race-first people that she agree with them; that swallowing sexism and/or homophobia in the name of racial solidarity was no more acceptable to her than swallowing racism in the name of feminist solidarity.
I did see someone in that Feministing (not Feministe, the interview one) say something about how she was tired of “race trumps gender,” which struck me then and still strikes me as a remarkable bit of Orwellian projection.
the one who shall not be named is the one who came up with “gender trumps race.”
no one else was saying anything remotely like the opposite. not before, not after.
well, no one posting in the main feminist blogs, at least; maybe i saw one or two at nubian’s, -after- the gender-trumps race kerfuffle, people who were coming from a blogosphere more specifically focused on race; but, shit, can anyone be surprised?
more to the point i have no idea who or what the stompy commenter at Feministing is so “tired” of.
i guess attacking strawpersons is rather tiring, at that.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but who wrote the motherfuckin’ rulebook of activism, Alon!? Where is this goddamn “activist formulation” you’re pulling out of your ass?
I will echo Blackamazon: your premise is FALSE. An activist has no obligation to anyone. You can be an activist on behalf of yourself, for all I care; it might not make you a good activist, but being a good activist and being an activist are two different things.
Being a good activist, BTW, doesn’t mean “lecturing” “citizens” (like activists are fucking citizens too??) or “making” new activists. False premises, all of them. False false false.
Two more points, and then I’m outta here:
Yeah, fuck off. You show up on someone’s blog and try to engage regular commenters without knowing anything about them or who they are or what they think? And then you make assumptions about them that the other regulars would know to be untrue? Walk into any sort of local establishment (preferably in a place where people might hold different opinions from you) and act ignorant of the local customs and see how far that gets you. I’m not sayin’ you have to suck up just because you’re on someone else’s blog, but you’ve gotta play a little nicer when you’re on someone else’s turf. If you’ve got real beef, take it back to your own blog.
NO ONE (no one here) PRETENDS THIS. Most people here would probably identify as progressive leftists and not Democrats to begin with. Plus, NO ONE PRETENDS THIS. Now you’re just making stuff up, honestly.
Wow, I don’t usually get this worked up, but this thread has pushed my buttons in all the right places.
As an activist revolutionary socialist, I go to considerable lengths to share my beliefs with others and make myself available to people who may be interested. A fairly substantial part of my time and income goes towards helping print and distribute books, magazines, and newspapers on socialist politics.
So, if someone seems sincerely interested, I’m usually happy to answer questions, or to recommend books or articles. But, quite frequently, some wiseass decides to waste my time by asking questions when he has no interest in my answers. I don’t want to waste my time on such a person. And, sometimes I get tired, and would rather someone just spent an afternoon reading the Communist Manifesto or a pamphlet or something, so I don’t have to explain some simple point.
In any case, it’s up to me to whether to answer a question and how. I don’t become a slave to another person just because there’s a question mark on the end of a sentence.
I’ve seen both demands for answers to basic questions, and snippy retorts to go read a book, used to disrupt a conversation, and I can’t say that either is always or never appropriate.
I find that most people like this are just looking for fill in the blank answers for their preconcieved rebuttals.
“Yeah, well, your idea that ___(insert idea here)___ is true is wrong and let me lecture you about it ’cause I’m and activist too! And if you still think you’re right, I obviously haven’t browbeaten you enough to get you to concede that I am right and always right!”
—
Oh, P.S., B|L, did you catch Alon’s post at his blog?
FO
But, of course, this is such a totally different thing. When I’m a commie, I’m not someone who has been identified by a race or gender that has been subjected to oppression. Commies deal with repression, not oppression. We’re not being attacked for our very race or gender or both, but for ideas (or strawcommie ideas)
Not directed to you, in what follows:
when people have been brining up how calling ppl tentacles has always happened or that calling people out on spelling always happens, it’s just that the speaker is being ’sensitive’, I really get annoyed.
We are operating in a racist and sexist society. If you’re a member of a privileged group, even if you are also a member of an oppressed group, you still have — I think — an obligation to work harder. It should be no skin of your nose because, guess what? You benefit from your privilege every damn day. Your whole life, often, has been built on the backs of others.
———–
I did have to laugh about trying to smack Anthony around re: the democratic party. or any of the rest of the commies that hang around this joint. heh. Alon, you’re a smart guy and that’s a dumb move. It was an attempt to derail the conversation, unwitting or not, by calling into question a quick flame reference that everyone basically understands. You didn’t have to do your homework, look in the right sidebar, and notice Anthony’s self-ID right under the Bitch Logo. All you had to do was engage in civil discourse — which means that you ‘get’ Anthony’s broader meaning. And boy, especially if you’re talking to a black person: to lecture black people on the nature of racism in both parties is just arrogant!
—————–
this issue isn’t also just with showing up at a blog or a gang of people who blog around town together. it’s about race and gender, two historically oppressed groups. privileged folk have an obligation to do their homework.
it’s not even-steven. which is why I said I’m not an equality chick. I’m an equity chick.
And your obligation isn’t erased because you are working class listening to issues of race or gender. OR if you’re a black man listening to issues surrounding gender. Etc.
One identity doesn’t cancel out another because identities aren’t like snap together beads for babies — those funky plastic bead that babies drool on and snap together for thrills and chills.
—————–
i don’t have a problem with alon if he plans on being civil — which is something I defien pretty broadly. Y’all can tell each other to fuck off and die for all I care. But when we’re tryin got have a serious conversation about oppression in any of its manifestion, I’ll get really pissy about sticking to the stance of “engaged fallibilistic pluralism”.
Since this blog doesn’t charge you anything (HA!) then I don’t have to staff to make sure I catch everyone on every single instance of bullshit or even on my own. It’s just another ad hominem tu quoque thrown into the mix to avoid a real argument.
I do find it fascinating that alon’s been hanging out at Belledame’s blog, has seen my comments for at least a month, and has never bothered to jump in ’til race comes up. IOW, please, I’m pretty sure you’re not here, alon, for the scintillating conversation or to learn anything.
::bangs head on computer::
I swear I mam not even mad im just lost
@ Blackamazon:
I’m sorry to have made things more confusing. I’m familiar with Alon from Belledame’s comments section, and I gathered that is ire is driven by his criticisms of identity politics. Hence, I think he read nubian’s words in light of his criticisms and saw things that weren’t there.
Ahh ok
You have to be active to be an activist. An activist is someone who engages in activities to change thinking and behavior. Let me add that you can be an avid supporter of a cause and not be an activist. That’s OK.
I thought nubian’s interview was great and she seems like a very smart and well-meaning person. Not sure why this thread got so hostile. (I think Alon is very smart and well-meaning as well.)
Well, yeah, duh. My point was just that an activist doesn’t have an obligation to act on behalf of anyone or answer to any constituents. You can be an activist for a cause then benefits only yourself and work to change thinking and behavior to further your personal cause, can’t you?
Yes, but that seems overly word-parsing to me. I’m an activist for my own personal financial health but it is hardly an appropriate word choice. Either you are or you are not working to further a cause. If you are, yes, you have an obligation by your own self-definition as an activist to advocate and educate. Otherwise choose a more passive term.
Also, why is it that only one side is an activist?
What in hell?
How can anything change if those of who like to call ourselves progessives or anti racist or interested in anti-oppression work or whatever don’t do the activism, too?
that’s why anyone should be rightly pissed that anyone who says they actually care about racism would sit there and expect to be educated, calling into question people’s experiences at the drop of hat. And worst of all, when it’s feminists doing it — because, too often, we complain about men being lazy. When a white feminists is, herself , being lazy. After whining about men? After complaining that men think they can paint all women with a broadbruch and then paint all feminists, to turn around and do it to all black feminists and/or all women of color feminists.
it’s just galling.
Michael
The only person who introduced ‘activist’ into the discussion were Ms. Jane at the original thread, and alon levy here.
Regardless, my point above stands. If you’re opposed to racial equality and if you don’t think much racism exists, let alone that you (general you) participate in it, the a body ought to just state it up front.
meanwhile, if you (general you) imagine you care and want to learn, then I think it behooves people to listen to others’ voices — and do so carefully, conscientiously, and with respect.
and maybe just be honest every so often, instead of pussyfooting around.
I’m not a fan of nubian’s claim that I’m reproducing hegemonic white feminist interest when I discuss sex positive feminism. I think it’s inaccurate to make such sweeping claims and so forth. But I try to understand that the experience of sexualization is much different for women of color and perceptions about what’s is most important to be done and argue over are very different.
I’m not sure what to do about it since I don’t think sex positive feminism is and can only be about pole dancing, but is much broader in so far as it is about sexual minorities, primarily, as well as about claims to our agency in a world shaped by sexist oppression, among other forms of oppression.
What I do know I should do about it is listen and read and constantly ask myself if I’m being stubborn and not “getting it.”
I agree — I always worry that I’m not “getting it” and I want to get it and sometimes the process of getting it requires you to ask sometimes stupid questions. I don’t believe the responsibility is on one side only. But — pick an issue — if you say you are an activist and I don’t claim to be an activist, I would expect you to be engaged pro-actively in changing opinions more so than me. I don’t believe you can claim you are an activist and shun opportunities to advocate and educate.
I do see your point. I really do. And I agree. I get off my ass and take responsibility — but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn from others. I SHOULD learn from others. It’s not bad if I learn from others and the act of wanting to learn is never bad.
That is what is so sideways about this — wanting to learn is never bad. Wanting to learn directly from other peoples’ experiences is not bad.
Bitch, have you investigated “Adversive Racism” at all? I ran into it while searching for responses to some of the “we are all equal” posts I’ve seen lately. Here’s a link and a quote that sound good to me:
Color Blind or Just Plain Blind? The Pernicious Nature of Contemporary Racism by By John F. Dovidio and Samuel L. Gaertner
Here’s the quote that applies:
In conclusion, we can no longer be passive bystanders to racism. We have to hold ourselves responsible. Abstaining from wrongdoing that is immediately obvious to us is not enough. It doesn’t begin to address the now convoluted and confusing nature of contemporary racism. In order to address contemporary racism, even and especially among well-intentioned people, it is necessary to establish new, positive norms for action that replace our current norms for avoidance of responsibility.
Yeah, I gotta say it’s the irony that really throws me.
I mean, there’s garden-variety cluelessness. But then there’s also–you have someone who has made *all these arguments,* been there in *all these ways,* from the other side (i.e. white feminists viz men);
and yet, you get WOC feminists voicing similar concerns and some people, instead of going, oh, wow, gee, this is uncomfortable and yet i recognize how this feels, maybe i *do* need to look at thus and so–
nope. no empathy; no clue. even when the irony is
s-p-e-l-l-e-d o-u-t as clearly as possible. non capsico. WE’RE completely justified in our righteous wrath; those OTHER people, well, what the hell is their problem? what’s the big fuckin’ deal? they’re just a bunch of big whiners, is what.
My understanding of her work has been to explicitly reject before, above, primary, whatever labels for oppressions. her “Oppression Olympics†post talks about the uselessness of trying to figure out which flavor of discrimination is worse when she experiences so many of these intersections all at once.
Absolutely, sorry, I wasn’t clear. Sexuality trumps race for her and it’s different for every person. She never said anything trumps anything else but of course it’s pure projection on the part of these Whites.
[...] It does goes on and on (even Bitch | Lab gets her licks in..and she elaborates further in her own blog here)..but you get the general picture. [...]
…now that I think of it, I think that I will never again bitch about the lack of comments on my blog.
Btw, Wetware trumps racism, gender identity AND sexual orientation. Oh, wait, that’s just me.
Or in other words, nobody can give a crap about everything equally all at once. We all specialize, and hopefully we specialize in something we actually understand, while respecting those who have their own perspective.
True but remember 51% of the world is female and 70% are minorities. Americans often speak as if women or minorities aren’t present and inadvertently offend or upset women and minorities. I’m bad at speaking as if non-straights were not present. When I try to argue points, I often overlook the fact 10% of people are queer. And it probably irritates people.